A Stormy Weather Introduction to Our Next Read: Heather Marsh's Binding Chaos

We recorded this episode with a storm radar glowing beside us, true summertime style!

Join us as we joke our way through Michigan good-weather guilt and then pivot into a serious as in seriously thought-provoking new book that questions the political truths we’re taught to accept. 

Heather Marsh’s Binding Chaos: Mass Collaboration on a Global Scale, pushes us to ask why representative democracy so often turns into oligarchy and what technology changes about power, voice, and responsibility. 

Here's the auto-generated highlights for those of you that dig a table of contents: 
• Michigan daylight guilt and how screens keep kids inside 
• Why weather is not small talk when it shapes daily life 
• Moving from care-centered society toward political truisms 
• Introducing Heather Marsh’s Binding Chaos and its core claims 
• The argument that representative democracy trends toward oligarchy 
• How majority rule can erase the most vulnerable 
• Real-world examples of who gets to debate trans health care and women’s bodies 
• Fear, algorithms, and distraction versus climate and disaster realities 
• Heather Marsh’s background in programming, human rights, and open information work 

Liking, following, commenting, and sharing this podcast really helps our indie efforts and RESPELLS THE WORLD!

The Book(s): https://georgiebc.wordpress.com/binding-chaos/

See what others have said about "Binding Chaos":

https://app.thestorygraph.com/reviews/07e8305b-c1f8-4dd6-8d70-364d108d9f0c

https://www.loomio.com/blog/2014/04/15/heather-marsh-government-as-mass-collaboration/

Binding Chaos on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/bindingchaos/

Envision This interview with Heather Marsh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAt6sWE18Bk

Credits

Season Two Recorded at Bob's Basement Studios, Michigan

Produced and edited by Sara Kaye Larson

Intro/Outro Music: ‘Shifting pt. 2 (instrumental)’  by Rie Daisies

Executive Producer Kate ML Rogers

Season One Recorded at Troubadour Studios in Lansing, MI (now in Traverse City, MI!)

Audio Engineer Corey DeRushia

Edited by Rie Daisies at Nighttime Girlfriend Studio

Leave us a voice mail

Have some feedback? Praise? General thoughts? Want to be on the show? Know how to pronounce something? Are you a religious scholar? We'd love to hear from you. Leave a message right from your phone or computer by clicking here. Recordings may be used in future episodes.  

Website

https://www.bitingalltheapples.com/

Find us on YouTube and BlueSky

Transcript

The Apple Phrase Cold Open

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Is it pump a bum? A boom? Is it pump a bum? That means the apple is good.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Ooh. Is it the pom a bum? The apple is good.

Welcome And The Secret Studio

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Welcome to Biting All the Apples, where two gals talk about radical books, bonkers, ideas, and general bullshittery.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

We're podcasting from a top secret underground recording studio in rural America. And that's all we should say about that for now, because today we're introducing our new book. And it's sure to ruffle some feathers and bunch some undies. Gotta pull those out, fellas.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

I love when people grown up people are like, don't get your panties in a twist. And I'm like, back off, creeper.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Why are you talking about my undies?

unknown 0:57

Not at all.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

So open up your brain box and settle in. It's time to chow down on the fruits of hidden knowledge.

Michigan Sun Guilt And Screens

SPEAKER_01 1:23

I'm Sarah Kay. I'm Joanna V. We have been swept away by extended Michigan summer daylight, but here we are, uh breaking all the Great Lake laws of being inside when it's nice outside to record this fresh episode just for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

I love that. You really are not supposed to be inside when it's nice outside.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

No, not that.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

If you were raised in Michigan, get it, enjoy it while you can. It is a sin against all gods, old and new.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

And you should probably state it to people be like, if you see them outside and be like, well, we gotta be out here because you know, winter's coming. It has to be mentioned. It has to be like it's such a nice day. Yeah, we should be out. It's a good thing we're out here enjoying it.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

But and I just remember you lived in Southern California too.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

I did too. I was in LA, you were in San Diego. It took me a full year to shake the Midwestern guilt about being inside when it was sunny outside. I'm like, every day. So it's sunny 360 days.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Yes. Yeah. It's like, oh, well, I kind of just want to stay in, but maybe I should go to the beach. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

I'm so conflicted. I got there, I'm like, so you guys do work during the day when it's sunny outside? This is so I can't. It's hard to describe. Yes. Do you think kids today still have that? Do they have that guilt? Or do you think it was like our generation that was raised like that?

SPEAKER_01 2:50

They don't because tech bros have them. They don't. No. They have to be forced to realize it. Yeah, it's it's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Yeah. So we should have put like PSAs like in their scrolling stuff to be like, it's nice outside.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

What are you doing? What are you doing? Yeah. Yeah. Because if their parents aren't doing it, it's not happening.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

That's so funny.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

I had a talk with a parent and the the child had to take a break from the technology because it was affecting behavior and things. And he came back and he was like, I was like, how's it going? You know, he's like, you know, I went outside and I, you know what? It's pretty great. I was like, see? It's not a bad place. But yeah. So it is a different world.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

It's not a bad place. It's not as well, different world now, yes, it's technology and screens, but as I'm looking at you, my fellow Gen Xer, we also have to recognize that it might have had something to do with the uh kind of like latchkey kid parenting. Or they were like, get outside as in get the fuck out of me. I got stuff. They're like, I want to smoke cigarettes with your Uncle Bill. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

So just And talk about things I don't want you listening to. Exactly. Don't come home till it's dark.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

It's true.

Weather Talk Turns Into Storm Prep

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Weather and being a Michigander, Joanne and I were talking about this just well, just yesterday.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

I don't know why. It always confused me when people said that talking about the weather was small talk. It's maybe it's because we were raised in the country. But I'm like, no, the weather is life. It is. And when if you grow up in the north or in a place that has radical weather changes and stuff, I'm like, it can disrupt your plants, it can snow your car. I mean, it's just it's a thing. And it's beautiful, you know. Fascinating clouds. I could talk about I could talk about clouds for six hours, and we just might. We may not even get to the book.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Yeah. Because I saw some really great ones yesterday. Those big thunder clouds, the cumulus that build up, and you're like, that's gonna be a storm.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Yeah. Somewhere. Somewhere storms are coming.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Maybe we should drive to that cloud. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Well, that would be me as a youngster. As a youngster, now I'm like, oh, we should get home. Yeah, get base, get in the basement and put a bike helmet on.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Get your shoes. The pets. We're actually in the midst of storm all over Michigan, the whole state.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Actually, that is yes, this is being recorded with a timer on. We don't even know how long we're gonna get to go. We're not. We have a radar up because we can't. As we always do, Joanna got here in plenty of time and we fiddle fucked her up. Well, we didn't. And we're like, oh my God, we gotta hurry up.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

We pretended we were vets with Cindy Clopper. We did some veterinary work. Um we identified flowers. We did nature bathing.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

We nature bathed. It's true. It's important. It is important. So, but we really backed ourselves into a corner. So it'll be fun. Yeah, it'll be fun. Because if Joanne doesn't get on the road, she may have to take a tornado home. Yeah. Me and Dorothy. I'm gonna get into the new book part. Yeah, let's do it. It's just, it's so I'm laughing. I'm laughing without laughing out loud, apparently, I guess. Sorry. So until it's fun to tell you all that I'm laughing. I'm laughing. I'm just oh, I'm having a I love to laugh.

unknown 6:30

I love to laugh.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Have you ever had people tell you that when you're like, that's a weird do you love to laugh?

SPEAKER_01 6:39

You just laugh for me then. And I've never had anything explained. Yeah, that's I'm like, okay. I'm a laugher. I'm a hugger, yes. Yeah. Hugger, I've had to apologize.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Like, yeah, we're not gonna get through those. I'm just silently laughing. I'm silently just I had a silent chuckle to myself when I thought of how you know we were like season two. We're just gonna do more books and we're

Leaving The Great Cosmic Mother Behind

SPEAKER_00 7:09

just gonna do a couple episodes on each book. And so here we are. So we just we did five, actually kind of five and a half, because I did that little bonus episode where I wove that the great cosmic mother in. But it just shows like we loved the great cosmic mother.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

It is singular. Is that a thing you call stuff?

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Singular. One. It is singular sensation. Never shoot it. The great mother really changed my life.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Yeah. It really did. It's so good. I want to revisit. But we did kind of yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

We've talked about it. But I mean, how it how it will continue to arise in me, I think, because it opens up possibilities that I don't think have been open. I think more people need to read it. Um a million percent. Because I see people on little reels and stuff, and they're like, they talk about matriarch. Like, what would it be like? And I'm like, man, I maybe I'll just start commenting, be like, right. Have you read? You know, I need to start doing that more.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Yeah. Have you read? Also, have you listened to our podcast? And then also the talk about the matriarchy, and everybody's like, the matriarchy's coming, blah, blah, blah. But reading The Great Cosmic Mother, it wasn't I didn't take away that we needed to create a matriarchy as much as a care-centered society, like a complete revamping of the priorities.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Yes, of bringing it in, and also men having that female aspect too. Yeah. But I think people are questioning, like, they're realizing patriarchy is fucked. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

That's why I'm up. That's why I wouldn't, I wouldn't go in and come and be like, technically, it's not matrix. Like, whatever. People are getting there. It's dialectical. You gotta swing over here and you get over here and then yeah, boom. Creation. Creation. And that um, I'm like, yeah, what am I reading? I don't even know if we're gonna. So yeah, it's hard to find a way to follow up the great cosmic mother. Yeah. It is. And we don't want to stop talking about it. But this was what I was silently chuckling is that we did say season two is going to cover more books and fewer episodes. And there are a lot of interesting works that challenge the status quo, and we want to bring them to light. So I guess, I guess we're gonna move on, but it's really good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Yeah, we have to move on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

And there's so many more. Um, the great cosmic mother really set a foundation for care-centered society. It got us so riled up about the patriarchy, it was hard to see straight. What could possibly steady our minds?

Introducing Binding Chaos And The Thesis

SPEAKER_01 9:44

What? How about a book that examines all of the political, governmental, social, and geographic truisms that are never questioned?

SPEAKER_00 9:55

Is there such a book, Joanna? Well, we bring you Heather Marsh's Binding Chaos Mass Collaboration on a Global Scale. It's first published in 2013, and it's a part of a series, but we're using the first book, Binding Chaos, to introduce you. And well, technically us, because you bring this together. It's like book cluby, kind of to her thinking. We have a lovely quote. Oh, yeah. Here's a little by the way, Joanna has the radar. This is like we have a storm radar up right next to us. And I'm like, it's a little distracting because it is bright red with murder in the middle.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

It does look like murder, and my nephew just had a tornado pass through, so it is tornadoy.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

It's important that people know that we're risking life and limbs.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Life and limbs.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Technically, we're in a basement, so don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Yeah, we'd be actually totally fine. Yeah, it's the best place to be.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

All right, here it's a little quick. If there ever was a need for a political representation or paternalistic and opaque authority, it has been removed by technology. Every political system we've had tried has proven incapable of protecting human rights and dignity. Every political system we have tried has devolved into oligarchy. To effect the change we require immediately to give individuals control and responsibility, to bring regional systems under regional governance, allow global collaboration, and protect the heritage of our future generations. We need a new political model. Heather Marsh.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Heather Marsh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Canadian. I know. There's your mind just absorbing the truism of borders.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Yeah. Oh, you're right. We gotta get we gotta just stop this. You're such a reformist, showing up. I need to go, I need to go put myself in time out. Yeah. She Heather has some pretty radical theses. One of them is that representative democracy always ends in oligarchy.

The Case Against Democracy As Default

SPEAKER_01 12:02

She believes that democracy, communism, and the trade economy will always be oppressive because the most vulnerable are not represented by the majority.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

Which that's where it like got me. This is why we picked this. So, like, have you ever heard an argument against democracy?

SPEAKER_01 12:22

Not me. Never. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

I thought it was like the end all be all. Right. I mean, it's held up as the you know, the carrot.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

You need this, and life will be better. Like, this is what's making everything awesome. So, yeah, if you've never heard an argument almost I say against democracy, I don't know if it's against, but that it that um is critical of democracy. That it's not the gold standard. It's not in in a way that's critical of democracy, but not like how like Orban was critical of democracy, but actually is like critical of that being an answer to like fascism. It's like no. And she's even she even breaks down communism. Yeah, I believe, y'all. Yeah, this is in the realm of dare I say, anarchy. Possibly. But that shows you kind of how much I don't really know.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

Well, yeah, I mean, it's crazy because she, I don't know how she came to the conclusion. Like I could say, yeah, there's a problem with democracy in the past, obviously. I knew there were problems, but I still always was like, well, it makes sense because you know, representative, but she's right. She's actually not everybody is representative, especially the poor, because they don't have time to think about what's going on. Well, here's And we don't know their needs.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

And so I want to say, off the bat, is we wanted to have the disclaimer, we're not like a hundred percent endorsing the ideas of this book, as in as we always say, I'm not like this is so this is the answer, and this is what we're gonna do. It's just having the opportunity to read this interesting thing.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

It's very and it's very the way that it's written, it really doesn't even lead you to being able to endorse it because it's just like ideas.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

It's the first in a series, and I believe like so this is kind of like where we are in the problems with it, and then a few of the other books.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

She does get into more like Yeah, so she's stating like this is what's wrong, yeah, basically, and like no real answers, but like it's just like an eye opener, like it is an eye opener. I guess it's it's also little apple slices, but you're getting a whole apple. Yeah, just little slices chapter by chapter.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

And I love when books do this, where it gives you framework and words for something that I've noticed for a long time and it has ramped up so much. For example, representative democracy, some of the problems with it. We're right now, like entire news days are about or news days, like news cycles and news stories and people spazzing out. Just the other day, long story short, we have white straight men arguing over what happens with like trans people and their access to medical care. Yeah. Nothing from their experience. They talk, I mean, we have entire news panels of people, news panels, also government panels, you know, the cabinet discussing what happens with women's bodies. How is it normalized that we still have like a father figure discussing what else can happen to people? The people that should be talking about trans health care for young are tr are trans people, right? Should fucking be talking about that. And that should be and they should have complete equal representation in any discussion about resources.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

And even though I know someone would come in from like the the traditional parties and be like, Well, we have caucuses.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Well, and that's just what she talks about. We have caucuses. And I'm like, you don't know. They have to have like equal No, it's a caucus. You're not understanding there's caucuses. We have the system, right? And that's just it. They don't. It's not, it's exploitation. And also, it's so that's so patriarchal. It's like, we're we'll let the men tell us how you know we can do that. But if you look at that, how people discuss that, or the people of different religions and races, like why? And we tolerate it over and over and over again. The birth rate shit. Oh, there's just like old white men on the news talking about it.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Did you know people are not having enough bait?

SPEAKER_00 16:36

Journalist host never stops and goes, Hey, how come you guys didn't, you know, have any women talking about this? Not I mean it's just ludicrous. And that's like a very base level.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Yeah, that's like level one.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

But it way deeper.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

Yeah. Because when you do think about just there's people that are day-to-day struggling, they're not gonna ever be represented in in this kind of government.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

And if you think about it, workers are no longer represented. They're absolutely not represented. No, you're right. In any sort of democracy.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

No. Worldwide.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

We have another book that's gonna tell us everything that's wrong. I'm kidding. No.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

No, but I it actually opens up your mind.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Right. And that is the point that we said we're gonna pick these books that really take stuff, these truisms.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Yes, I like that.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

That have not been questioned, like deep ones. For some people, there's probably some people listening that are like, I've been an anarchist since like the way back when the democracy thing, that's not very shocking to me. But to read anyways, it's gonna be really fun.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Shocking for a lot of people. I mean, it was people are ready for some they I think it's so evident now. One, with like global you can get global news, so you can see everything. So I the more know you know, anytime you get more knowledge, but like she said, we've relied on technology when maybe maybe that's not what we needed as a species, as a planet, right, as a whatever we are. Right. Universe. Right. It it's not like she presents answers either, but at least not in this book.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Well, that's I'll tell you a little bit more about that. Yeah, tell me more. Well, the other thing that I wanted to you're this is what made me think. So you were talking about globally, and so if you're paying attention to, you know, global news as much as we can. I have no idea if I'm getting like told I mean, I do try to check other news sources, but anyway.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

It's hard. You have to search, you have to actively search.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

It is becoming more and more unbelievable that democracy are like voting our we're gonna be able to vote ourselves out of this situation. Especially we're talking about the 1% are now getting so wealthy that they could probably kill everybody. And yeah. I mean not everybody, but they could kill like all the poor people or workers that are annoying or sick people.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Well, you realize I mean they keep going so dark. I'm like, and I'm dark too because I I they don't need us. I just had that conversation with another group of people because you know they're buying up that island that they want in the Mediterranean. It's got bunkers in it. Yeah. Okay, so maybe they are just trying to kill us all off. Yeah. I don't know what they want to do with the Earth. Are they just if they're using they want to use the minerals to get to Mars or I don't know. It's probably not fully thought out, and they'll probably do it, and then they'll be like, oh shit. That wasn't as fun as I thought it would be.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

I think that they they see what like some of us can see. I'm looking around, I'm like, I'm giving workers maybe another decade before everybody starts to like kill

Fear Politics And Who Gets A Voice

SPEAKER_00 19:56

the rich people. Eat the rich.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Yeah. I mean, I would hope. They probably see that. But yet here living here we are in small town America, and you know, you see people that still support the dude. Yeah. So that's really it's mine.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

It hurts it hurts my brain to think the main thing that keeps everybody locked in is fear, and things are getting worse, so they're just gonna double down on the fear and then they'll like immigrants and then crime. Okay, and they'll feed the algorithm. They're bringing back up um gender reassignment surgery for for kids. They're bringing that back up. That's what got me so mad. Where I'm like, clearly, this is not something us like straight like stop fucking talking about it. Yeah, it obviously it reminds me of abortion stuff, like late-term abortion talk. It reminds me exactly of that. Cause I'm like, They pull the babies out nine months. I'm like, they're early arms off. Isn't a group of people that's like, we're gonna round up these 10-year-olds and get gender surgery. Like that, that's not a thing. It's just like women aren't like I love to carry a child to eight and a half months and need an abortion. And need an abortion. It's it's easy to work or continue school if you just get pregnant. I'm like, I'm like, think about it, people.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

But they d they've given all those thoughts. But that could be because of religion. It's you know, it's a like a symptom, you know? Yeah. That they've given over all mental capacities because they they just want someone to tell them.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

They're telling them what to fear, but it's funny because I'm like, what we should be afraid of is like a huge climate event thing. Like that's like crazy possible.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

Yeah, because I mean that's the only thing actually it's going to happen. When I have arguments with people, arguments, discussions with people. I will say I discussed. Usually it's about climate change because the other

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Even just practically, so Hurricane Katrina for me, even though I understand that wasn't necessarily climate change. Well, it was whatever. It was bad. But you know, there was the levees and all the you all the problems with man.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

You're telling people in those places.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Yeah, people see that and then see how fucked over people got. Or even I mean, just even recently in the Carolinas and stuff, I'm like, we're totally on our own. Yeah. And y'all are talking about late-term abortions and some gender reassignment surgery that is completely private and it's completely genders and sports. Like bathrooms. So that was a roundabout tangent with the back to Heather Marsh.

Who Heather Marsh Is And Why

SPEAKER_00 22:50

Yeah. So she's like, there's not like an online like bio of a really. You know, I picked up little pieces, and if you'll look at I'm sorry, not I'm like, and if you'll look whatever at me. Hi.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

You look great.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

A lot of stuff pops up about her involvement. Um, she was, she ran two major Twitter accounts that were known as like Anonymous. That's her. Wait. Yeah. Anonymous Anonymous? Mm-hmm. But part of the Well, I mean, she comes from the like coding internet. She's super smarty pants. She's from, well, like her little the little bio that I found is Heather Marsh is a philosopher, programmer, and human rights activist. And she's the author of the Binding Chaos series. In 2015, she began working on a data project, Get Gee, with the global, with the goal of allowing global collaboration and research and information without control by a specific platform. So she's really into this like decentralized, like I think so much crap that I don't understand, but like mesh networks and blah blah blah. My point is, and I don't even know if I have any questions.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

So she understands that digital world. Which is which is why that probably that quote with technology then that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

And she was really she's a human rights campaigner, internet activist, and a computer programmer. I already said that. She's been at the front lines during a pivotal period of global social change. She was an administrator of the WikiLeaks endorsed news site, WikiLeaks Central. She's really involved in this, you know, open information and stuff. And she wrote back in I think, yeah, early teens, 20 teens, um, about the global sex trafficking. Oh, yeah, oh yeah. Like if you look, there's a I'll and I'll link this in the show notes. But I mean, she pretty much was like telling everybody that this Epstein thing was like a huge, like government-involved global like thing. People, and and there's even a Reddit thread, it's really funny. It's from like six years ago, and some guy's like, this is ridiculous, and there's not this blah, blah, blah, and she's just a fascist. Oh my God. And I'm like, that didn't age well. No. Um but Heroes and Henry.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

So she is kind of like an underground figure. Yes. Probably because she's spouting these people.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

Yeah, she wanted and she did, I think she did work with like, what's the but she really got into that the child she really got into child sex trafficking. She's glad that doesn't turn you away from her book.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

So sorry.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

She was she was working in the streets. You know how it is. Sorry. Activism. And I I haven't seen the information anywhere, but it would make sense if she was involved in that kind of like WikiLeaks type of information. That's probably where she did do WikiLeaks stuff.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

I did hear that.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

So she was like a big Oh, here we go. Oh shit. Oh shoot. It was Guantanamo Bay. That's what I was trying to do. Guantanamo bay. Um, look, where's the tornado?

SPEAKER_00 25:59

Where's the tornado? Our tornado thing is in. Our tangent was so good.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Oh, I loved it. Keep going.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

I know. Um where's the Guantanamo? Oh, this is what I was trying to say. Say it.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

I'm just checking the weather.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

She sounds like a really hip lady. Although I heard an interview with her, I'm like, she sounds really subdued. And that's how I know she's Canadian, Canadian accent. Ah. In the the rest of this bio says, she's reported on ritual killings in, is it Gabon, and began a research project to map connections between the people responding to a fracking protest in New Brunswick. She started, this was the thing I couldn't remember, Op Death Eaters campaign with the goal of independent inquiries to investigate a change in public discourse around human trafficking.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Oh, okay.

unknown 26:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

The Op Gabon and Op Death Eaters campaigns were the same. Death Eaters. Op Death Eaters. I think I'm saying this right. Same with the other one is.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Oh, and Harry Potter. I'm sorry. I have a whole Harry Potter thing.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

What's a Harry Potter thing?

SPEAKER_01 27:01

The Death Eaters. Oh, I don't know it.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

I don't know any Harry Potter or anything.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

They're scary. They come floating and they can suck your soul out. I mean, you could the name gave Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Or maybe it's Harry Potter thing.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

No, I don't I don't think so. I mean it could be. But say it again.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

Op Gabon and Op Death Eaters campaigns were the subject of a book, Crime, Justice, and Social Media by Australian criminologist Michael Salter, which features extensive interviews with her.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

Mmm. I would like to I would like to know. Yeah, I like how I like learning what brilliant people think.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Exactly. And that's why we're that's why we're doing this binding chaos. Yes. And the um that's what I found out about. I'm sure some listeners know a little more. Um, even though like that's all those activist things, that's the common thread. And if she's had all that experience, she started to write binding chaos, I think because she was absorbing and looking at all these systems, you know, and being like, wait a minute. I did these things, these horrible things keep popping up, and these are the systems, and this is what happened.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

So And she the reason she wrote it, I did hear an interview with her. The reason she wrote it was because she kept having to explain it over and over again to people. Right. And she was like, I'm just gonna write it down, right? So it's this book is very brief. She said like each chapter she could write a book on. Yes. But she just had to write it down because she was sick of because people are like, I don't understand what you're saying. You know, it's kind of like the person who probably created a computer. They were like, Right. Build it and I will come. You know, field of dreams. Yeah, exactly. So she made it was really like a manual, like, I'm sick of explaining my thoughts. These are them. And then she continued.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Yeah. If you look, and I encourage you on the look online if you haven't, she's a uh polarizing figure.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Yeah, people don't like you to not like democracy, apparently.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

And that's why and since we're communist, any system, yeah. They're like, ooh, that's really unnerving. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

My panties are in a bunch. Yes. So I'm like, it's a secret, she's a secretive, polarizing figure. Interesting thinker. And we're gonna read those books. Yeah, and she's a woman, you know. I like these women. Look at us. I know. I think that's when I first heard about it, that's what attracted me. Is that I was like, oh, she's like a you know, computer nerd person. Yeah. And I don't know. I wanna see what and she's a chick. I want to see what she says because all we ever hear about are these like tech bros. Yeah. So that's what we're going to be going through. So exciting! I know. And you get Drean's

Tornado Timing And Final Wrap Up

SPEAKER_00 29:51

gonna go.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

I'll wrap this up without just Yeah, I gotta go because I'm running outrunning a tornado. The oh, look at that. I know.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

I'm gonna take a picture and put it in. Can I put pictures in our show notes? Yeah. Here's the storm track. Let me put it, it's put it right, make it look like extra bad. Yeah. Oh, death. Oh my god, death. That little blue dot is you, and that red.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

And then and then this is uh storm chaser.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Whoa. That's very dramatic, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Yeah. A watch is a warning is worse.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

A warning's a warning means I'm warning you there's something behind you.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Okay, I gotta go. I love you.

unknown 30:31

I don't remember.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

Okay, well, we got Joanna off on the road in time. And she's in front of the storm. But now I'm back here to record the wrap-up, and there's nothing that'll take the wind out of your sails like removing the life of the party. But here we are. But so now you know what we'll be discussing next. It's gonna be awesome. We're getting all theoretical and philosophical, but um, who are we kidding? We were born theoretical and philosophical, weren't we? Anyway, I'll be sure to put a link to information about the book and the author, Heather Marsh, in the show notes. And uh we wanna know have you read Binding Chaos? Or are you familiar with the work of Heather Marsh? I know she's done lots of writing. She had a blog, she's written essays and books and tweets. Um or do you love a lover, but hater, or somewhere in between because you aren't a binary thinker, like all that hater love stuff. You gotta let us know. But truth be told, you can actually let us know anything we would love to hear from you. Send us a text or a voicemail, all that info is in the show notes. Um, liking, following, commenting, and sharing this podcast really helps our indie efforts. That's uh kind of all we ask of you. We're not trying to be like join our monthly club subscription. We're like, just let us know you're listening, let us know what you think, share it with your friends, do presentations on it, get a car wrap with biting all the apples on it. I don't think that that's like a lot to ask. But more importantly, doing all of that is a great way to re-spell the world. I don't think we've forgotten about our great cosmic mother instructions. So go out there and get 'em, all you babes, hags, witches, and kitties. We'll be back to buying some chaos in the next episode. Thank you so much for listening. Bye.