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Biting All The Apples
Biting All The Apples is an unhinged bookclub-ish conversation that channels the sassy wisdom of long dead victorian feminists to analyze the puritanical influences still messing with our world today. We start off with the 1895 best seller "The Woman's Bible" by Elizabeth Cady Stanton. Each week we cover their 19th century feminist analysis of a book in the bible and ponder, laugh, and cry over the similarities to the issues of today.
This is a great listen for anyone interested in the patriarchal influence in religion, politics, and social order. As well as anyone that is GenX or any generation, anyone that likes comedy, books, history, and thinkin.
Biting All The Apples
Marriage As A Source of Church Revenue and Other Fun Timothy Tidbits
If you like your podcasts with a side of crashout then this episode is for you. If not, this is still the episode for you but you may want to jump to around 18 minutes to get straight to the part where we talk about the book.
You're going to love the victorian feminist takes on the Epistles to the Ephesians, Phillipians, and Timothy. I mean, someone had to respond to all the men-win doctrine and instructions for women in marriage, appearance, and widowhood.
You'll get to enjoy classic lines such as: "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands as unto the Lord" and hear about how widows aren't supposed to have any fun. And you'll be terrified or depressed to realize just how much Canon law seeps into civil law especially here in the states.
Whether you're a person of faith questioning traditional interpretations or simply interested in how ancient texts continue to shape modern power dynamics, this episode offers a fascinating look at the roots of gender inequality in Western society. Join us as we advocate for a world where, as Chandler wrote, "the religion of Jesus is a voluntary acceptance of truth," and "motherhood is equally honored with fatherhood in human institutions."
Credits
Recorded at Troubadour Studios in Lansing, MI
Audio Engineer Corey DeRushia
Edited by Rie Daisies at Nighttime Girlfriend Studio
Music: ‘Shifting pt. 2 (instrumental)’ by Rie Daisies
Have some feedback? Praise? General thoughts? Know how to pronounce something? Are you a religious scholar? We'd love to hear from you. Leave a message right from your phone or computer by clicking here. Recordings may be used in future episodes.
Website
This is what I meant to say we're not using the internet anymore.
Speaker 2:Seriously, we're only going to the library.
Speaker 1:That's right, we're all books. This is a book podcast. This is a book podcast.
Speaker 2:We're sticking to books. I'm sick of this. I'm sick of this internet. Throw that thing out the window.
Speaker 1:This is what I meant to find. It's the Greek term for apocalypse, which means an unveiling a revelation.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:It was a revelationady Stanton.
Speaker 2:I'm Sarah Kay. I'm Joanna.
Speaker 1:V. Oh, I know Winning. Are you winning? Did I say winning, or witty Witty, witty, we are, it is winning. Did I say winning, or witty Witty Witty, we are, it is hard.
Speaker 2:It's hard to just talk. It's hard life Right now. Yeah, in reality, yeah it is.
Speaker 1:I know.
Speaker 2:I feel like I play a part all day and then I come home and I'm like, oh yeah, we're like what a world.
Speaker 1:It's not nice, but I feel like, since we're probably the only podcast in the nation, it's important that we do this.
Speaker 2:I mean we're a public service, we are a public service we are.
Speaker 1:We are here. It is hard to describe how crazy this past week has been, and then you know I like to make jokes where I'm like, oh, we're just a tiny podcast and no one listens, but it is seeing the clamp down of our First Amendment rights. It's insane Over. Some conjecture is like yeah, see, I don't have words Because reality is unexplainable.
Speaker 2:Right now. It's like literally like I can't even. I don't even know what's happening.
Speaker 1:I don't know what's happening. There's just, you know what, even though no other country has this problem, we just. There's no way to stop it.
Speaker 2:I know it's crazy. There's no way to stop. I'll tell you, you know.
Speaker 1:I'm going to go there. The other thing about people being desensitized, so I was in a shooting, oh yeah. In a bowling alley and it was wild, because the people around me like my friends and stuff. They're so desensitized that they're like, well, how many people were shot? I'm laughing from trauma. So, yeah, I'm like. So, I'm like just for no fatalities. So everybody's like, oh OK, I'm like we were in an enclosed building, it was terrifying.
Speaker 1:Even like seeing that like leak through where I'm like no, like we are truly damaged, oh, yeah, we are damaged from gun violence.
Speaker 2:I thought there was a moment a couple years ago something happened in a mall but people actually saw the brains of people and they started talking about it, like what they look like when they get their head shot off, and I thought, oh, maybe that'll do it. No, it did not, it doesn't. It did not but apparently podcasts are powerful, right? So I don't know what happened.
Speaker 1:We're going to go on the record saying I think getting a gun should at minimum be involved as much training as getting a driver's license. Minimum, that's just. I mean that's not a lot, that's not a lot to ask, and I almost.
Speaker 2:So we had.
Speaker 1:We've got Cindy the studio cat in here and she said I agree, she agrees, she's like, who needs guns? If you've got these claws?
Speaker 2:Yeah, get some claws, get some claws out there, I mean look, I'm like I don't even know what to say about that other than what we just said. It is so much to see people who have disregarded all of the school shootings, all of the hate crimes that have been done to people of not their thought persuasion. And then all of a sudden like outrage. But of course it's not about guns, it's not.
Speaker 1:They're not talking about putting guns, it's just they're mad because Because our president incited or spread the word that it was like a political opposition, even though we do not.
Speaker 2:And we're enraging these people who are upset about their person. Yeah and so. And they're enraging these people who are upset about their person. Yeah and so, and they want to now shoot us.
Speaker 1:As of today. We're recording this on September 16th. As of today, we do not have an official motive of the shooter of Carly's shirt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that guy Is that code I like it Is that code and, as we just said, like not into gun violence.
Speaker 1:Super no.
Speaker 2:As we just said, like not into gun violence super like.
Speaker 1:That was super uncool, oh my but horrendous. I shouldn't say but no, they're super uncool period and the one portion of all this last week that I do think slides into our lane is the. Is it the martyring? Is that the word I'm looking for? Or the, just the?
Speaker 2:It is martyring. See, I'm having a hard time. When you martyr someone, you are putting them up as a cause of righteousness, right? So he's been used as righteousness for Well, what goes?
Speaker 1:in a better world. Okay, sorry, what I mean is what is in our lane? Is this for the past, like 22 episodes? We've seen so many instances of how men you know are just forgiven and that really is the appeal of Christianity and the patriarchy, because it's like do what you will, but as long as you say you're Christian, you're good, yeah.
Speaker 2:In the end, you might have to give a lamb or two Right you have to give a lamb or two.
Speaker 1:But in just seeing that in such a big scale, in real time, where people are like, well, he was just trying to spread the Christian message, We've actually been reading the Bible. And.
Speaker 2:I got to say it's a little different message. I mean, and this is just a fraction of the message, but a little bit different message.
Speaker 1:I mean he espoused a ton of really negative, hateful stuff about people that he knew nothing about and he has no experience about. So it was really crazy to see you know people that we know. You know like boomers, being like we have to carry out his message. We're like when did you start listening?
Speaker 2:to that and tell me what part of the message resonated Right. Tell me.
Speaker 1:So, but all of that has been covered. I guess that's the point I'm trying to get to. All of that is just completely washed over because he was christian and that's how that works. You will forever be unaccountable, yeah, as long as you're just, you know, as long as you're married, have kids and say you're christian, christian, well, that's why I like that one book, the the midnight kingdom by jared sexson, because it is like a history of power and it starts with the co-opting of Christianity for war and stuff.
Speaker 2:Was it just built to be more corrupt?
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is my question. It was built for power, so that's it.
Speaker 2:It was by the kings and pharaohs.
Speaker 1:I mean, obviously that's my informed hot take. I love it. But other people may have, but it really, the rise of it, directly aligns with imperialist power, and it's like you must believe this or you are going down to the bad place no one else does that.
Speaker 2:I remember when I was getting married, my family was having heart palpitations because obviously, obviously, my in-laws are Hindu right. But immediately like I met the priest and I'm like, oh no, we don't, we do not convert people. No, no, no, that's not what we do, that's like not a thing.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so crazy. We welcome you. Like what?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was like pardon, that's not like you don't sign on. Yeah, like no, no, no. You're like what? Yeah, I was like pardon, that's not like you don't sign on. Yeah, they're like no, no, no. And then I had my parents over to my in-laws and my sister-in-law just like saved the day, and she was like what are you talking about? And she's so bubbly and everything. And they were like, okay, we're doing it. And I was like them because we have lived in america. A christian, um, dominated gemini, yeah, what is that? Oh, gemini.
Speaker 1:I like that word. What does it mean? It's like it means the the dominant thought that yeah overarching, overarching, that's my grad school word by the way.
Speaker 2:Oh, I like it that I know half the definition of. Half Hermione. Yeah, oh, I can't use Hermione anymore.
Speaker 1:Oh, you know what I am pretty. Oh, I know some stuff.
Speaker 2:I love it.
Speaker 1:Hegemony is the preponderant influence, authority or dominance of one group over others, although through constant rather than solely coercion.
Speaker 2:Constant yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember.
Speaker 2:So I never like, I don't know, I mean, I thought about things, but it wasn't, like it didn't encompass me, like I was like, well, church probably isn't really for me when I was in college, right. But then I went away and I'm like I feel like it's just part of life, right, everybody goes, everybody's doing it. But then I visited some missions right in California and there's like graves out there of like Native American stuff, and I had a come to Jesus moment where I was like this does not feel nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, some bad things did happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, where I was like, hmm. Then you hear about, like the religious schools in Canada and the Native kids See, this podcast is getting dark.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:We're in dark.
Speaker 2:We're in dark times.
Speaker 1:We are in dark times. Winter is here, Winter is here. Yeah, so Joanne and I, you know last week, we're in a thing. We're in a thing Because last week we had known about the shooting. I was like we can't.
Speaker 2:And I'm actually glad we didn't yeah. Because, I'm like we just do not.
Speaker 1:We don't know, and now we know.
Speaker 2:But we still don't know actually, no, but we know the reaction, the reaction Of whatever is happening.
Speaker 1:The reaction in my informed opinion is that is batshit crazy.
Speaker 2:Amen Amen.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's batshit crazy. It's also kind of out of the authoritarian playbook to you know, seize on a tragedy.
Speaker 1:You're right, absolutely, and politicize it and turn groups against each other. But I can't urge people enough. I'm like they don't know anything about the motive. I shouldn't say not anything. They have some clues, but the dude is not talking, we do not know the motive and people have gone. Ham, oh, man Doxing, and meanwhile our president didn't go to CK's memorial because he was golfing. So I'm like who's really? Yeah, he's really, but I guess you don't need to dox him, though. No.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but they should, because I mean, actually, I think the first time he was asked about it he's like yeah. I'm feeling they're like how are you doing after? Yeah, and he's like I mean, I'm good, I'm building a ballroom. Yeah, and just talked about the ballroom. Yeah, weird Super fascinating and they're not mad at him and the other fascinating. Why aren't they mad at?
Speaker 1:him Because.
Speaker 2:Because he holds Bibles upside down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're not going to get mad at him. It's interesting, it is. It's also interesting to watch. The policing of feelings to me does also stem from a Christian tradition. You know, like your internal thoughts don't belong to you, mm, hmm, mm, hmm. In fact, you can even go to health for thinking bad things.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is kind of crazy. So we have the double banger. It's all been unleashed. Nothing is weirder than seeing, especially people like Joanna and I know, like old boomer parents of our classmates being like we just need to carry on this legacy of our classmates, being like we just need to carry on his legacy. I'm like, excuse me, mrs L, have you even heard anything that this?
Speaker 2:dude said Were you watching his videos. I feel like I can't even picture that I can't picture some 80-year-old lady watching a podcast on YouTube.
Speaker 1:I just can't. I cannot get down with people being like well, I don't agree with everything he did.
Speaker 2:I'm like listen, I had to stop watching Woody Allen movies, okay, so everybody just says and they were really good, some of them are really good, but he is a creepoid and you're right. But I have my convictions Right and you should too. Come on, yeah, but there's no way that this many people like knew him and they're just. But it is that thing, um, where it's everything is so repeated, like you know that they are just seeing it because it's the same verbiage, like they use the same verbiage it's's the same thing.
Speaker 1:It's almost like they got.
Speaker 2:Christian family man. Christian family man. Okay, so someone told you that I know, but where's the receipts? Right, I need receipts Like we have different ideas.
Speaker 1:But it really is almost like you know, when I do communication work there, I always ask them, like do you have a style guide, style and a brand guide? And it's almost like they get. I'm like maybe they get that every week, Like they get a newsletter. That's like these are your talking points.
Speaker 2:This is be sure not to use these words. Make it simple so it can be repeated. It is it's bonkers.
Speaker 1:It's really something. I feel like I could sit across from you and us just shake our heads together being like what is going on? I feel like we had to say a little something.
Speaker 2:No, we do, but it does it's a Christian thing.
Speaker 1:It actually like how they lifted him up after into like him, being the guiding light of love and peace, and Jesus is.
Speaker 2:I'm going to say with 99% accuracy that the Jesus was a stand up dude Like, like all the things you want a human to be Right, except everybody. Don't let any sheep stray.
Speaker 1:Remember the Samaritans? He was like well, I can drink out of the same fountain, or whatever.
Speaker 2:that was All these lessons that are totally ignored by the people who espouse to be the best Christians.
Speaker 1:They don't want the lesson, they want the power.
Speaker 2:Just the power. But I mean most of the people doing this have no power anyways, unless they get someone fired. But it gives you illusion Well, it gives you.
Speaker 1:They're like I got that person fired. That's what I'm saying. That gives them power. They can get the power from that. Also, there's power in the you know American interpretation of Christianity. There's power in being told that you are chosen and you. It's very hierarchical, especially the Christian nationalists. You know that I'm just rambling, but I'm like this is fucking crazy.
Speaker 2:No, it was. You know how, like COVID changed everything. Yeah, this really opened up another layer of I'm just lost. I'm lost as to what the reasoning is With people. I knew at some point, Right that they can. I don't know how they're putting it together in the brain and it doesn't make any sense to me.
Speaker 1:I think that's the hardest thing it doesn't make any sense. And the other part that doesn't make any sense is it seems like again, I don't know if somebody if we could have a conversation, I don't know if somebody if we could have a conversation. Why does it seem like it's to align with this billionaire who's grifting, who's using our country as a money laundering scheme for his rich friends, and I'm like yeah, what?
Speaker 2:And he's not even grieving your martyr. And why aren't you upset? It does none. Of it makes sense and I cannot put it together as reality.
Speaker 1:Right, and isn't it, nuts, that that reaction could get you like, picked up by?
Speaker 2:Pam Bondi.
Speaker 1:Yeah right, she said none of it makes sense when clearly it's all made sense because we wrote the narrative and you need to believe it.
Speaker 1:These are wild times. But I want to say as we were talking about earlier. Do not forget that, even though it feels like it and they want us to believe that, you know all is lost. We're going to all get thrown into, we're all going to get sent to El Salvador for using our First Amendment, we still have it. Yeah, we do. We still have it. We still. There's still a lot of crap in place, we think. We still think there's a lot of, maybe, law and order.
Speaker 2:Maybe or something. There's people fighting for it. That's true.
Speaker 1:Do not don't obey in advance. Do not obey in advance. Do not obey in advance.
Speaker 2:No, this is the time to be loud and to be fearless. To be fearless use your mind, speak your truth, make people think. When I started this with you, I was like, eh, it's Aaron, and now I just get angrier and angrier. I mean, I know, because it's infuriating, and then having people that have lived it so long and not questioned it at a late stage is like, and they're like oh, the stuff that we're going to go over today, which I forgot to even mention in the little intro, but hopefully you've been with us here, stay with us.
Speaker 1:But that's what we're getting into the epistles of the epistles to Ephesians and Philippians and Timothy and all the weird picky social doctrine involved and all that crap.
Speaker 2:That's what this is about, where it's almost like, now that we've gone through the Old Testament, like, well, at least that had some, like you know, I keep on saying like Game of Thrones style yeah, like you know, sweeping stories, we're going to kill the whole town. Yeah, like, okay, including babies, get them. Yeah, that's a great like effect, yeah, great narrative effect, but the New Testament is just like laws Against women.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the New Testament is laws against women.
Speaker 2:Remember, elizabeth warned us about that oh yeah, in the intro she was like if you think you're right means progressive, you are sadly mistaken.
Speaker 1:No, no it's way worse, it's and it kind of is well, I don't know actually well, but it just keeps growing. There's not a piece in the new testament where like 90 000 people are murdered? Oh, right, right, true like they. A piece in the New Testament where like 90,000 people are murdered? Oh, right, right, true, like they are back in the book of Esther.
Speaker 2:True, true, True. So there's less death more repression.
Speaker 1:But you know we're like immune to that. Just like we said with the shootings, I was like, oh, only 90,000.
Speaker 2:Oh, this was just one town.
Speaker 1:Well, first we get to the ephesians. And this is just, I'm just going to read the first, this is is that how you say ephesians? Ephesians 5, um, and it's like whatever six, it's verse 22, 33, the very first one wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands as unto the lord. I mean, over over it, yeah, over it. And then it goes on more with the stuff too. That's like if the husband is ahead of the house, if Christ is ahead of the church, Men win, men win.
Speaker 1:Men are the winners, men are the winners, and it goes on. It's like husbands love your wives. Even as Christ also loved the church, so ought men to love. It is just weird why they have to be so specific about this. Yeah, stuff.
Speaker 2:And this isn't the only place like the other epistles we're going to read are all about this.
Speaker 1:They're like this isn't jesus, this is paul, who we I told you.
Speaker 2:I suspect he had a bad breakup and had a um hallucination that he meant right and it really. He didn't really what I read more, he didn't really see Jesus. It was like a bright light and he heard him.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:He didn't see him.
Speaker 1:He just heard him and Jesus just laid down all these tracks about, like women and widows, and so he must've just told him whatever you think, write it down and make a letter, Whatever you think. But hey, write it down and make a letter whatever you think, but hey, actually I trust you.
Speaker 2:This is you're my bro, you're my. It was probably like you're my bro.
Speaker 1:Write it in a letter or what if, like, jesus showed up and he was like oh shit, I thought this was peter. And then he's like and paul starts talking, and Paul's like super annoying, and Jesus is like hey, man, just could you put it in some letters.
Speaker 2:Send it to me. Give me a memo, write me a memo.
Speaker 1:But Elizabeth says if every man were as pure and self-sacrificing as Jesus is said to have been in his relations to the church, respect, honor and obedience from the wife might be more easily rendered.
Speaker 2:You know, like when you're respected Well, it's one of the things that you say is like if you want to be respected, show respect.
Speaker 1:Right, like there's. There really is no reason and no holy reason from like God or Jesus or anything. They teach where it's like and it's essential that women just blindly are obedient to men. Like it makes zero sense.
Speaker 2:Zero sense, yeah, logically here we are Thousands of years of this, so weird.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I think that's funny because they're like, well great, you know, jesus was a good guy and if we were all married to Jesus it'd be great yeah exactly that's a better way and then he says she says but that's not how it is it. But it is not easy to love those who treat us spitefully in any relation, except as mothers. Yeah, their love triumphs over all shortcomings and disappointments. I don't know about that. Occasionally, conjugal love combines that of the mother.
Speaker 1:Then the kindness and the forbearance of a, of a wife, may surpass all understanding yeah um so occasionally yeah, I do like you're reading a little better where elizabeth is like yeah, if like dudes want to be like jesus, sweet yeah well, yeah I'll listen to him.
Speaker 2:I think he's gonna tell me to do what I love. Also, and she is going to be like feel your heart Go out there and grab that dream sweetie Exactly.
Speaker 1:Also she's pointing out more like. So if all this is written, why is it really more that everybody's focusing on? The wives have to submit to their husband and they're not focused on? Husbands need to be like Jesus.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's not. That is nowhere to be found.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean it is here. I mean it's written like as the husbands have submitted as unto the Lord.
Speaker 2:Well, but it doesn't say that like treat your wife nice, but we have to submit to the husband Like, but we also have to submit to the Lord.
Speaker 1:He that loveth. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:We're like at the double.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:The double-edged sword.
Speaker 1:He that loveth his wife loveth himself. That's nice, that's nice, that's nice, so that is nice. We're like okay, let's see what do they say? Actually, I didn't understand this. I hope you do this. Philippians 4, 2 and 3.
Speaker 2:Did I understand it?
Speaker 1:Yolk, fellow. Yeah, I beseeched, you do us and beseeched.
Speaker 2:Oh, the yolk fellow, that's just like someone that's really your homeboy, like they're like your second in command. I kind of like that. You're my yolk fellow, probably because you know yoke's and it's like your co-host.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm here with my yoke fellow. Here we are yoke fellowing around. We're probably gonna find out later. Be like, never say that that was used. Just don't say it, okay, right? Yeah, um, there were women of no at philippi who disagreed and caused divisions in the church. The apostle therefore entreated them to make mutual concessions for the welfare of the church. The yoke fellow referred to was supposed by some to have been the husband of one of the women.
Speaker 1:Oh, so see, she's just like yeah, this is all petty insider crap, why are we held to it 2,000 years later?
Speaker 2:It was like one dude in one church, in one town.
Speaker 1:I love this too, she's like, but such mention by the apostle must have been highly appreciated by any man or woman for whom it was intended Like thanks.
Speaker 2:Thanks for the shout out yeah.
Speaker 1:Somebody's probably like love you, paul. He's like Paul, this lady is bugging the shit out of me. He's like don't worry, I'm going to write a letter.
Speaker 2:I'm going to do a little pissle here. I'm going to pissle them into shame. I'm going to pissle the shit out of this. Yeah, interesting, very. So, timothy. Yeah, do you know who Timothy is?
Speaker 1:I actually don't know who his mom is, but apparently his dad died.
Speaker 2:I was trying to make something up I'm like, yeah, he was like a student of Paul right. Well, so well, or I mean I go to like real housewives but anyways do tell, do tell.
Speaker 2:So that his dad was passed away. I don't really know a whole lot, but he came in and he raised him as his son. But the fact that, um, I don't know who said it, was it um ecs or but they basically said it was like a peculiar relationship, I think, I think, I underlined, basically said it was like a peculiar relationship, I think.
Speaker 1:I think I underlined that too.
Speaker 2:It was a little peculiar, peculiarly beloved by him, watched over him as a father, often speaks of him as my son and was peculiarly beloved by him. So like, almost like that sounds like peculiar. Yeah, and if you take someone at a young age, of course they're going to look up to you. But what was up? Yeah, yeah, and then Timmy got to write some letters. What?
Speaker 1:does peculiarly beloved mean in Victorian times. That's something I. Is that some? That seems like a deep dive. That seems like a deep dive. Use your imagination in the meantime. Yeah, this is Timothy, chapter 1, timothy 2, verses 9 through 14. And this is so barf. This is about like women's hair. Let the women learn in silence, with all subjection. But I suffer, not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. Eat a dick.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, and then they relive the Adam and Eve lie. Yeah, which hello gap theory doesn't make any sense. Doesn't make any sense, I'm all into the gap theories.
Speaker 1:That's why I love. Is it ECS that says this or is it LC that talks about? If male is first in station and authority is superior because of priority of formation, what is his relation to whales and every living creature that moveth which the waters bring forth and every winged fowl after his kind which were formed before him? Yeah, you are less than the whale. That's from our gal Lucinda chandler, so I mean skipping around here, but the no that's because they do.
Speaker 2:This is like they're like. Well, um, eve was a sinner and she beguiled my little adam, but she came from the rib and therefore you must submit and do whatever the man tells you to do.
Speaker 1:And they're and he's using the justification that it was order of formation, shows who should be subjected, and they're like okay, let's do it. Let's do this because whales and bugs and snakes came before you, sweetie.
Speaker 2:So suck on that for a little bit. But yes, timothy, the, what is he? The protege of Paul.
Speaker 1:He's the protege of Paul and I forgot to mention the first thing does talk about how, in like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel with shamefacedness and sobriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly array.
Speaker 2:Just blend into the wall, ladies. Blend into the wall and submit to the husband.
Speaker 1:And don't tempt us with your luscious brains. It's your fault.
Speaker 2:I saw your shoulder. Like what? Yeah, it says, I like ECS. I know it appears very trifling for men commissioned to do such a great work on earth to give so much thought to the toileting of women, the toilets, the toilets of women.
Speaker 1:I do. I love that Trifling. She says it is perhaps not fair to judge Paul by the strict letter of the word. We are not well informed of the habits of women in his time in regard to personal adornment. You know what Paul means by modest apparel, supposing the translation to be correct, and that is true. I do like these little reminders. But she talks about how she's like a compact braid was much more comfortable than individual hairs free to be blown about with every breeze.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm sorry, we're working, we're cooking, we're having babies without any anesthetic. Yeah, and I'm braiding my hair Right, because, first of all, I don't think you're supposed to cut it either, so you can't cut your hair.
Speaker 1:You can't wear bells. But, I gotta have it flying in my mouth. What you can't have tinkling. Remember that from back in the old tea Dang tinkling.
Speaker 2:I love this. I wanted to say oh, I know. Ordering men to have their heads shaved and hair cropped, while women were to have their locks hanging around their shoulders looks as if they feared that the sexes were not distinguishable and that they must finish nature's work. That's when, oh, that's when it started.
Speaker 1:It is when it started.
Speaker 2:They were like, oh my gosh, we could be the same. And why was that? Shave your head and let yours grow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm starting to think, you know, because we followed this progression, that the reason that they needed to divide the sexes so much, to divide the sexes so much, I mean there's probably many reasons, but one does go back to this idea of them needing to be silent, probably because women are really intuitive and perceptive. So there would be the first ones to be like do you really think Paul saw this? Yes, yeah, right.
Speaker 2:So he's like we got to like nip this. Oh man, they're thinking too much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're going to blow the whole scheme and they want to make sure that and I'm going to lose little Timmy they want to make sure that the guy Exactly they're like. We need to make sure that the questioners look a certain way.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm. So we know not to like. You know, talk about them. We're getting in the nitty gritty. I know I like it.
Speaker 1:Once you just start to just go crazy.
Speaker 2:You're just unleashing those neurons and like yeah, that makes sense, girl.
Speaker 1:I know it really does Shoot. They're like we can't be having these.
Speaker 2:Because, it's true, we do have more intuition, because sometimes we'll meet people, my husband and I, and I'll be like, and he's like, oh, I'm not a great guy. And I'm like, yeah, I got some. What? That's really nice, you gave me something. Speaker.
Speaker 1:You gave me a speaker.
Speaker 2:Where did he get it? Yeah, where I'm like I get these feelings Right, it yeah. Yeah, where I'm like I get these feelings right, I get the feelings where I'm like.
Speaker 1:I don't know if men have the feelings I mean I'm sure they're probably just like every, yeah, like everybody. You know what has you know? Well, spectrum, yeah, they definitely or an intuition I'm sure there are some dudes that are intuitive but also the idea. Yeah, oh, it's a lot. The idea and the idea of hierarchy, you know, and competition, and you know.
Speaker 2:It just makes me sad that it's been going, that the charade has become so deep.
Speaker 1:The charade, charaded for so long. It is no longer.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that, do not think you the?
Speaker 1:charade, charaded for so long. It is no longer. Oh, I love that.
Speaker 2:Do not bring your charade, I think you just wrote a new literary classic, the charade, the charade of masculinity, by SK and JE.
Speaker 1:We will be performing next week. The coffee shop, bring your snaps, bring your snaps.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, they do come right to the future here from Timmy. So you know they're like hello. Well, timmy, you're not so far off. This is LBC. Oh, I love her LBC just man, she just like she goes on a free flow of just like amazing.
Speaker 1:By the way, real quick, that's Lucinda B Chandler, and she was the one that's associated with Christian socialism.
Speaker 2:And she wrote we talked about.
Speaker 1:her don't know. That's fine too. Labor is labor, Labor is labor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly a Dorothea Dix and Clara Barton, not to mention a host of faithful mothers. He might perhaps have been less anxious about the apparel and the manners of his converts. Could he have foreseen a Margaret Fuller, a Maria Mitchell or an Emma Willard? Possibly he might have suspected that sex does not determine the capacity of the individual, does not determine the capacity of the individual? Or could he have had a vision of the public school system of this republic and witnessed the fact that a large portion of the teachers are women, still are, still are? It is possible that he might have hesitated to utter so tyrannical an edict quote, but I permit not a woman to teach Paul Crazy, crazy. But she pulled it to the next. She's like maybe Paul needed to be, you know, if he had a vision, too bad, he didn't see these badass women.
Speaker 1:I want to add to that list of badass women Because her Well, first of all, her, lucinda. I would also like to add, I don't know Harriet Tubman, phyllis Wheatley, harriet Jacobs, sojourner Truth, frances EW Harper oh girl.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Yes, and Ida B. Wells, oh, I love you at that, and yeah, I you know. Thank you our victorian 1895 yeah 1895, even though I mean again every woman. She mentioned baddies.
Speaker 2:Yes, I just wanted to mention some of our other baddies, baddies, yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1:Phyllis wheatley, harriet jacobs sojourner truth and I was like you didn't mention harriet tubman. Yeah, what the hell actually, paul, I'd love for pa Paul to have looked back in the 19th century and seen Harriet Tubman. Yeah, who was? Tell me who? Jesus? Would love so much more of a badass than anybody. Anybody Got at the time.
Speaker 2:Agreed, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If anybody is going to be lifted up, yeah, come on, but she is right, though.
Speaker 1:I mean it just doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't.
Speaker 2:It doesn't hit right I was like how many times I said it doesn't make any sense, it is strikingly inconsistent that Paul, who had proclaimed the broadest definition of human souls, quote there is neither Jew nor Greek bond, nor free male nor female, but ye are one in Christ Jesus, unquote, Unquote, as the Christian idea, paul should have commanded the—it is, oh sorry, it is strikingly inconsistent that Paul should have commanded the subjection of women and silence as essential to her proper sphere in church. Yeah, yeah, come on, why would he? Did you see? It doesn't make sense. There's so much. But again, this is Tim. So maybe Tim had some hard feelings about Paul, right, yeah, maybe. Maybe that's just me speculating, I'm just making that stuff up.
Speaker 1:There's so much Lucinda and Elizabeth crush this response to Timothy in general.
Speaker 1:It's lovely. Jesus maybe you've heard of him is not recorded as having uttered any similar claim that women should be subject to man or that in teaching she would be a usurper. Okay, the dominion of women over man or of man over woman makes no part of the sayings of the Nazarene. He spoke to the individual soul, not recognizing sex as a quality of spiritual life or as determining the sphere of action of either man or woman. Yeah, jesus himself did not. He was like no.
Speaker 2:No, that's what I mean. All the things that Jesus says they do not capitalize on.
Speaker 1:Right Stevens, and that's George Baker Stevens who wrote his. Is it Pauline or Paulin? It's got to do with Paul. It's got to do with Paul. It's called Pauline.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Pauline, but it's about Paul. It's about all the letters that we know of Paul's yeah.
Speaker 2:Paul's letters.
Speaker 1:Or epistles, sorry. So that's why we're reading this and we're not even like considering, like anything about him or of that time, especially when he's talking about doctrine about how women should dress and what their hair should look like and in marriage. Doesn't make sense that is carried on is totes ridiculous. Down these 19th centuries in a portion of the Christian church, the contempt for women which Paul projected into Christianity has been perpetuated. The Protestant evangelical church still refuses to place her on equality with man. Mm-hmm, sad, mm-hmm, it's so sad. And she does go.
Speaker 2:I mean she writes like her whole response, which actually is kind of quite long, oh my God, but it's worth the read. You should get this book.
Speaker 1:Get this book has it, it's got some good stuff, In case you're 23 episodes in and you're like I don't know. I don't know if I'm going to get this book.
Speaker 2:You gotta get it.
Speaker 1:So Lucinda kind of hints that the whole history of the fall of man says sharp. Oh, it says sharp. Oh, she's talking about.
Speaker 2:That's still LBC. She did this whole thing.
Speaker 1:I know, but I mean it's sharp. Who's the writer Sharp, anyways, in work on Egypt, that kind of myth and story the temptation of the woman by the serpent is to some belief that has Egyptian origin and the sacred tree of knowledge. A cherub's garden with flaming swords, the door of the garden. Sacred tree of knowledge. A cherub's garden with flaming swords, the door of the garden.
Speaker 2:The warfare declared between the woman and the serpent may all be seen upon Egyptian sculptured monuments, and this is what historians did way back in 1895 and before then, and before then.
Speaker 1:And yet people are still like maybe how many times in the past you know six months to the last six years have you asked yourself why don't facts matter to these people?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so same same, and I think we talked about that, like how easy it is to mind meld when you're brought up with a most ridiculous story, right as like this is what happened. You'll never see anything like it, ever, nor will you, I mean, but just eat this.
Speaker 1:Eat this and clean your plate and clean your plate.
Speaker 2:Or we won't feed you.
Speaker 1:Yet parents literally hold their children emotionally and psychologically hostage for food and shelter to believe this shit.
Speaker 2:But they have been held hostage. And my worry now because people are going that have no idea, probably never been to a church, but now they've found a martyr and who is hosting all of these memorials A martyr and who is hosting all of these memorials, and I think people are going to be joining them in mass.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which is at the same frightening. Americans in general are primed for cults and religion Mm-hmm, but these times it's going to be like back in the late 60s and 70s. So between people going to the evangelical stuff, we're also going to see some weird other stuff. We're seeing a lot more like witchery and paganism.
Speaker 2:Not that I say that's weird, I like that, but I'm just saying like there's going to be a lot. There's going to be a lot, we should start one let's do it I know, join us, I am not going to.
Speaker 1:Did you see this line? It's so good. She talks about. The great apostle left no evidence that he apprehended this fact. His audacity was sublime, but it was the audacity of ignorance.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:So they talk about the canon law and how it, or is that in the next one?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, is that? Yeah? Because they bring it about, because the Canon Law affects us, which turned into civil law, that's what.
Speaker 1:this is the important part you got that. Do it, read it? Oh, okay, tell us.
Speaker 2:Canon Law framed by the priesthood, compiled as early as the 9th, making women subordinate in civil law. Under canon law, wives were deprived of the control of both person and property. Canon law created marriage a sacrament to be performed at the church door in order to make it a source of revenue for the church. Marriage, however, was reckoned too sinful quote to be allowed, for many years, to take place within the sacred building consecrated to God and deemed too holy to permit the entrance of a woman within its sacred walls in certain periods of her life. Okay, so it used to be, but then they're like, oh, this could be a moneymaker life. Okay, so it used to be, but then they're like, oh, this could be a moneymaker. All of this became civil law and it affects us All the way to 2025.
Speaker 2:Yes and beyond. I'm certain, Because I mean as much as I feel like we're on the precipice of fundamental change. Yeah, It'll probably happen when we die.
Speaker 1:So here we are, timothy, chapter two. Timothy three probably happen when we die. So here we are, timothy chapter two. Timothy three, verses two through 12 ish, even though they're missing a few. But whatever, I just like this because it says um, it's talking about a bishop and his requirements for his wife and he has to be not given to wine. No, striker, not greedy. A filthy Lucre, is that how you say it? But patient, not a brawler, not covetous.
Speaker 2:Oh, covetous, thank you.
Speaker 1:I acted like I didn't know what that word is. Give me a break. I lived to covet. Likewise must the deacons be grave, not double-tongued. Don't be double-tongued. Don't be double-tongued. Don't be double-tongued.
Speaker 2:Don't be double-tongued. Nothing worse than a double-tongued snake.
Speaker 1:Look at how many double-tongued religious leaders there are, oh my goodness. Even so, must their wives be grave, not slanderous, sober, faithful in all things. Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife. This is what I like too, because then we go on to learn that I was like oh, that was like a new thing apparently. Used to have a ton of wives. Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife ruling their children and their own houses well Ruling.
Speaker 2:Ruling them, ruling. I want to be a king Gross.
Speaker 1:It's a king complex, gross Timmy.
Speaker 2:I think something probably happened to Timmy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, timmy, I think something probably happened to Timmy. Yeah, poor Timmy. I think that somebody got to them, you know, like a lobbyist. I bet they did.
Speaker 2:And it was not Jesus's.
Speaker 1:So I just had a few things Jesus needed better people. He did. He needed definitely better handlers. He did. He needed definitely better handlers In this chapter. The advice of the apostle in regard to the overseer or bishop is unexceptionable. That's what Elizabeth said. Yes, I like how she mentions. She says nowhere in the Old or the New Testaments is there an account of drunkenness by women Like why do you have to mention any of that?
Speaker 2:How come? What? You just throwing it out there, you're sticking the glue. You know I'm rubber, you're glue Right, so you're the drunkard. Don't put that on me.
Speaker 1:She's like what and this is the part I think you mentioned this, so she's starting to talk about. She's like, oh, interesting that these are requirements for your leaders, your bishops and your deacons, because the directions for the conduct of the bishop are explicit.
Speaker 1:He has to be gentle gentle, not contentious, which sets aside much that distinguishes the masculine nature. In fact, with the exception of the qualification apt to teach, before forbidden, the entire list of the necessary qualities of a bishop is that of womanly characteristics temperate, sober-minded, ie not given to trifling speech. Orderly, given to hospitality. No brawler, no striker. This supposedly refers to the pugilistic tendencies. But gentle, not contentious, every qualification is essentially womanly.
Speaker 2:Yeah embrace it, guysbrace it guys. It's not bad, e-c-s Embrace it.
Speaker 1:Timmy said to but she's like those are the qualifications Also. So then why can't women be church leaders? Why are you like?
Speaker 2:you're saying all the things I am. Yeah, Timothy goes on to just destroy widows Like dude. If your husband dies, oh, you are screwed ladies. Oh my gosh, this is Timothy 5. It says 1 Timothy 5. You shall never have pleasure again. It does say that Until you're 60. Apparently, when you're 60.
Speaker 1:And I'm sure it does. It says that so weird.
Speaker 2:Where did you see any? I just had this. Let not a widow be taken into the number under three score years, having been the wife of one man, so like.
Speaker 1:I don't understand. I don't understand any of this. This is like yeah, now, now, she that is a widow, indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, but she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth. Ok, thanks, dude. You having a good time, you're dead.
Speaker 2:I see you shaking your rump, little rump shaker, you're dead inside You're shaking your widow rump. You're not even sad, dude. He died. Died 40 years ago again, see you're not even properly sad.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, you're not grieving correctly. Here. We have right here Timothy and Paul, and all these guys say that isn't that just disgusting? Disgusting. I will, therefore, and Paul and all these guys say that.
Speaker 2:Isn't that just Disgusting? Disgusting. I will, therefore that younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully, for some are already turned aside after Satan. Just the women Like. Nothing about the men, this is all about widows. You're just picking on these poor like, and I mean, my god, they're they. Who knows, maybe they had a really nice husband I know people died early. People died early.
Speaker 1:There was no osha and also exactly those tent makers and widows, then, unless you had a very wealthy husband like you, could be really screwed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you couldn't work, right, you didn't get paid. I mean, that was a whole thing where, like you, had no life because the laws were already there from whenever they started writing the Bible in a way that made us subservient. I know, it's just so. Oh my God. The widow was to be enrolled to a church and it must be three score years old, having been the wife of one man. Even when they explain this, I don't understand what that means. The widow who was to be enrolled to be provided for by the church so the church would take care of them, must be three score years old and having been the wife of one man. Whether this is repudiation of second marriages or refers to the afflicted washed the saints' feet and diligently followed every good work, is a recognition of a right of principle which should be made part of a social organization, not just a church. Right Like it's not their fault and because of the way the laws are written, they can't take care of themselves.
Speaker 1:You don't let them, not that they couldn't, and I don't know why some of these like doctrine and these really specific rules like why aren't these looked at like? If we were to look at like this is how we handle the Xerox copier. Do you know what I mean? I'm like that doesn't.
Speaker 2:Yes, but I do yeah you're right.
Speaker 1:It's weird, it's not even a thing anymore. Don't worry about it. I said and again oh, and this is. I think this is LBC is writing the response to all these. I credited Elizabeth with the other thing. I didn't mean to.
Speaker 2:No, she like, she brings up.
Speaker 1:This is so good to a similar thing Like what would Paul think today? What a spectacle the thousands of breadwinning young and unmarried women of today would be to Paul if he could come here. Mm-hmm, you know, yeah, now think about it, Summon him. Ooh, I love this too. Whether married or unmarried, the highest duty of every living soul, woman or man, is to seek truth and righteousness is to seek truth and righteousness, and the liberty which is of the spirit of truth does not admit of the bondage of husband and wife the one to the other. Freedom to seek soul development is paramount to all their demands.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, yeah, your soul. Everyone has one, and that is actually what Jesus is saying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's like I don't know about all that. Yeah, he's like my best friend's Mary Magdalene.
Speaker 2:She's rocking it out for me, spreading the good word.
Speaker 1:He's always like I'd rather hang out with the girls. Anyway, this is our last little tidbit, right?
Speaker 2:Well, there is no prerogative more tenaciously held by the common man than that of rulership. There is no greater opposition to a woman's equality in the state than there is in the church, and this notwithstanding the fact that the church and the pulpit are largely sustained by women. The church is spiritually and actually a womanly institution, and this is recognized by the unvarying expression mother church. This is the mother church. They actually call it that still today. Yet man monopolizes all offices of distinction and leadership and receives the salaries for material support as the inevitable result. Spiritual life has become so languid as to be ineffectual, and an effort is being persistently pushed by a portion of the evangelical church a portion too which most strenuously keeps its women silent to fortify the church by power of the civil government.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, that's the whole thing. That's the whole thing. That's the whole thing. That's the whole thing. Why did I even need to? Why did I ramble for a half hour before this? That's the whole thing. That's all. How did I miss that too? That was in this thing. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:And that's not even the part I starred, because this is the whole end.
Speaker 1:You're like y'all can't even handle the parts I starred. This is too much. The truth will make your head fall off.
Speaker 2:Well, I love this. This is for the Christians out there that love Jesus. There is no suggestion in the teaching of Jesus as recorded, of compelling individual authorities or powers to acknowledge God. The religion of Jesus is a voluntary acceptance of truth.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. Can you read that last line again?
Speaker 2:Yes, because.
Speaker 1:I feel like.
Speaker 2:The religion of Jesus is a voluntary acceptance of truth. Boom, quote. God is a spirit and they who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth. Quote. There can be no compulsory life of the spirit quickened by the source of light, light and love. The masculine idea of compelling a formal acknowledgement of God by the state is entirely unchristian.
Speaker 1:Until the feminine is recognized in the divine being and justice is established in the church by the complete equality of women with man, the church cannot be thoroughly Christian. Honor thy father and thy mother is the commandment. The human race cannot be brought to its highest state until motherhood is equally honored with fatherhood in human institutions.
Speaker 2:That's it. We've solved all of humanity's problems. Thanks, lucinda B Chandler. May you send your ancestors to come give me a hug, and I want to touch your essence, lucinda Is that weird to say you can touch her essence.
Speaker 1:Do you think Cindy's like a Victorian feminist reincarnated? She probably is.
Speaker 2:She's probably meditating on what we're saying, because she's like Cindy give us a sign, give me a sign that you are listening.
Speaker 1:Well, you know cats.
Speaker 2:Cindy is well entranced.
Speaker 1:She's entranced by our beautiful reading of that.
Speaker 2:But you know what? It probably soothes her to hear the truth. It does. She's like my lady's got it.
Speaker 1:Cats love truth. They do. They love truth. They love treats and butterflies. That's like me.
Speaker 2:Keep my interest it's wild to read these.
Speaker 1:It seems like every week it's crazier and crazier in this country and it's so tied to this Mm-hmm it's. I mean that, right there, that last.
Speaker 2:It is this. It is this. This has been. What do you call that co-opted?
Speaker 1:Yeah, is that yeah? Co-opted. Like it had some good things Bastardized.
Speaker 2:It's been bastardized.
Speaker 1:That was a doozy.
Speaker 2:It was.
Speaker 1:And thanks for sticking with us this whole way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I hope that we offer some sort of solace to those of you that are feeling like us Right, wtf, yeah, but how does it keep getting more WTF-y?
Speaker 1:But I do hope that you wrote down all those instructions on how to live as a woman and or a widow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you better note that yeah.
Speaker 1:We'd hate for you to get swooped up by Satan. So next week you know the fall is a crazy time and I think you're going to be bopping around, I'm going to be bopping and gallivanting Be bopping. So next week, maybe, just like a little bonus episode, we're going to see, but we'll be back to the next full episode, which you can expect. That would be two weeks from today. Two weeks full episode, which you can expect. That'd be two weeks from today, yeah, two weeks. But we're going to see how much little treats we can toss out your way. So stick with us, stick in. But that next full episode is going to be the last bits of the actual women's Bible, not including the appendix which we may do a whole special series on. So that's crazy. So that is just a page and a half of the epistles to peter and john, and then some words from our favorite oh, I love it matilda jocelyn jocelyn gage is coming back as one of the analysts and elizabeth katie stanton on the book of revelations I'm super.
Speaker 2:that's super important because people are living that one. Yeah, yeah, bringing, yeah, bringing them back. So we'll see about that. I'm looking forward to that too. Yeah, you can fight the attacks on free speech by supporting podcasts just like this. You can fulfill your good deed quoted today by subscribing, commenting, leaving reviews, interacting on socials and, most of all, by helping us spread the word. Share this podcast far and wide.
Speaker 1:So until the next episode, keep your soul development paramount. We know you can. Peace be with you and also with you. Bye.
Speaker 2:Shake my hand.
