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Biting All The Apples
Biting All The Apples is an unhinged bookclub-ish conversation that channels the sassy wisdom of long dead victorian feminists to analyze the puritanical influences still messing with our world today. We start off with the 1895 best seller "The Woman's Bible" by Elizabeth Cady Stanton. Each week we cover their 19th century feminist analysis of a book in the bible and ponder, laugh, and cry over the similarities to the issues of today.
This is a great listen for anyone interested in the patriarchal influence in religion, politics, and social order. As well as anyone that is GenX or any generation, anyone that likes comedy, books, history, and thinkin.
Biting All The Apples
Virgins, Lanterns, Host Bodies and the Supernatural Book of Matthew
The battle for reproductive rights and women's autonomy isn't just modern politics—it's a struggle with deep historical roots. In this episode, we dive into the New Testament section of Elizabeth Cady Stanton's revolutionary Woman's Bible, where Victorian-era feminists dissect biblical patriarchy with remarkable insight and surprising humor.
Their analysis strips away supernatural elements while preserving Jesus's moral authority, describing him as a "mountainous man" who perceived truths before others could. As one anonymous contributor boldly states, Jesus "commands far more love and reverence as a true man with human possibilities than as a God superior to all human frailties."
The parallels between past and present are striking. When we discuss modern politicians referring to women as "host bodies," we can't help but connect it to Mary, "the original host body," whose immaculate conception story these Victorian feminists saw as diminishing ordinary motherhood. Their reinterpretation of the parable of the ten virgins is particularly revolutionary—rather than women competing for a bridegroom, they read it as a call for women's self-sufficiency and intellectual independence.
Perhaps most powerful is Elizabeth Cady Stanton's critique of women who sacrifice their own education to support men and institutions that exclude them: "Women go to make themselves ladders by which their husbands, brothers, sons climb up into the kingdom of knowledge, while they themselves are shut out from all intellectual companionship." Her rallying cry to women to "light your own damn lamp" resonates just as strongly today as it did in 1895.
Join us for this feminist time-travel adventure that will change how you view both religious history and contemporary gender politics. Whether you're religious, spiritual-but-not-religious, or a committed skeptic, you'll find something thought-provoking in these brilliant women's fearless questioning of patriarchal authority.
Credits
Recorded at Troubadour Studios in Lansing, MI
Audio Engineer Corey DeRushia
Edited by Rie Daisies at Nighttime Girlfriend Studio
Music: ‘Shifting pt. 2 (instrumental)’ by Rie Daisies
Have some feedback? Praise? General thoughts? Know how to pronounce something? Are you a religious scholar? We'd love to hear from you. Leave a message right from your phone or computer by clicking here. Recordings may be used in future episodes.
Website
How's it going? Host bodies How's the host body doing? How's your host body going? Who are you hosting lately?
Joanna:So sad because we both have so many little girls in our lives.
Sara Kaye:I know I'm thinking of good podcast titles for Welcome to Host with the Most Host Body Podcast, the Host Body Podcast how to keep your body hostable or un-hostable.
Joanna:Oh yeah, yeah.
Sara Kaye:Yeah, how to get a one-star rating on your host body, so no one ever tries to stay there. It's the podcast that.
Joanna:Saucy Serpent warned you about.
Sara Kaye:Welcome to Biting All the Apples where two gals discuss one radical book, the best-selling critical and comedic masterpiece from 1895, the Woman's Bible by Elizabeth Cady Stanton.
Joanna:I'm Sarah Kay. I'm Sarah Kay.
Sara Kaye:I'm Joanna B hey. New Testament. Who dis who?
Joanna:dis who dis. That's right, we made it.
Sara Kaye:That's right. We are moving into the part of the Bible with chapter names that even I can pronounce. I'm looking at you Matthew, mark, luke and John John. This sounds modern, right, like so modern that this is where the Bible gets more lady-friendly. Well, our cherished Victorian feminist, elizabeth Cady Stanton, tells us no, not at all. From the looks of her intro to the New Testament and the woman's Bible, we're in for a real ride on the patriarchy train. We'll go over her intro and get into the analysis of the book of Matthew. We're talking lineage magis and lots of virgins, all the virgins, all the virgins. Because, yeah, apparently they're still coming at us in large quantities, these biblical virgins. So grab a cup of something or tie your laces on for that walk. We're getting into it right after our friendly disclaimers.
Joanna:Biting All the Apples covers analysis of religious texts. Some listeners that are religious out of the need for the illusion of certainty may find the content offensive. Biting All the Apples also discusses historic texts and feminist movements. We recognize that individuals, groups and alternative movements have been left out of mainstream history. We will note that whenever possible, we are open to additional information provided to us in the spirit of expanding knowledge. Yes, you know.
Sara Kaye:Here I am. Here I am, Expand my knowledge. I debated on changing the intro format because now we're in the New Testament, I'm like do we need new disclaimers? But I don't, you know do we?
Joanna:No, because I'm telling you from what I read definitely needed, Because this is going to throw some people. For a whoo-hoo, this is going to throw some people. If you're listening to the podcast, you probably thought these things already. But it's just like validation. Yeah, the disclaimers are needed. I don't know how we change it, except now we're in the New Testament.
Sara Kaye:Well, I mean, should we shorten it? Do people get the idea?
Joanna:It's good. Oh yeah, I guess we could just be like check back on the other If you made it this far.
Sara Kaye:You don't need the disclaimer. You know, what listeners may not know is that we've really it's taken us 30 minutes to do that. One minute intro.
Joanna:It did.
Sara Kaye:It did. People don't know. People don't know. There's so many different factors, like I have ligament laxity and run into crap all the time. Ooh, ligament, laxity, I don't know if that's a real thing.
Joanna:But I have it Is that when you just like run into things even though you know they're there, yeah. Or if you have like 10 things in your hand and you're like I'll get one more and then you trip and you lose them all, yeah, and you're like it takes you 10 times longer?
Sara Kaye:Or if there's only one place in an entire room where you could possibly stub your toe, I'm going to go find it.
Joanna:Yeah, to it.
Sara Kaye:I want to get hurt.
Joanna:Let me cut my hand as I'm trying to chop an avocado.
Sara Kaye:It'll happen. It'll happen. You know what? What can we say? We're people that are in life.
Joanna:That's right. We don't have time to slow down and look for things that we're going to stub our toe on, exactly, and I never know Doors that accost your arm and bruise you for weeks. You don't know if you're alive until you know you get to like bleed every so often. I mean, we're chicks, that's how it goes. That's true. It's true. I don't know if I'm progressing unless I drop some blood from my host body. That is important.
Sara Kaye:Is that from this week?
Joanna:I know, you know, it's the first time I've been referred to as a host body in like real life.
Sara Kaye:I'm starting to think Okay, so in real life there was something, something eclipse circulating, but it looked like it was some kind of podcast.
Joanna:It was some you know, it was some kind of jack ballers with a podcast.
Sara Kaye:It looked like it was a conference, something in florida of course, it was definitely in florida. It was florida, it was florida, florida the new country but I think I'm starting to see people say such shocking things. One, it is terrifying, but two, it's making me question how much we should be responding with outrage, because that is how the misinformation and propaganda stuff works. So what we're talking about is there was some guy in a suit talking about women as host bodies yeah, for babies.
Joanna:Well, basically he was explaining the abortion laws and he just, instead of saying the mother, you know, could have these issues. She was no longer referred to as anything but a host for a parasite which will be her child if she makes it through.
Sara Kaye:Oh yeah, and he was kind of like. So then you don't know, like is the host body's rights more, and it's I almost, and I've been in, you know, the reproductive justice. Yeah, you got a lot of background and I've been in.
Joanna:You know the reproductive justice.
Sara Kaye:Yeah, you've got a lot of background, but at this point that's why I'm almost suspicious of it, because the sentiment has been the same forever, but they're using this new. I don't know if they have to amp it up because women have made such strides. I don't know if it's a dog whistle, I don't know if they're just trying to busy people Like so people like us will be outraged about it. And so people like us will be outraged about it.
Joanna:But they're trying to busy us with so many things.
Sara Kaye:There's so much wrong. If you want to busy me, just ask me to organize something in my own home. I won't see you for like five years.
Joanna:I'm telling you, I was just telling you about organizing in the home.
Sara Kaye:And you know what? I'd rather be a host body than a nobody. Oh zap.
Joanna:I'll give you the Z snap.
Sara Kaye:Okay, what are we doing here? We turn to the Bible for answers, the woman's Bible, the woman's Bible. Yeah, Things are getting crazy, so I can't believe that we are in the New Testament.
Joanna:I've been waiting for this because you know, this is my jam, this is your jam.
Sara Kaye:I didn't grow up with the New Testament.
Joanna:I've been waiting for this because, you know, this is my jam, this is your jam. I didn't grow up with the Old Testament, Just little pieces. But I'm telling you every Sunday. For the majority of my childhood I was learning.
Sara Kaye:Really.
Joanna:Well, you know I like church. It was very therapeutic for me. I told you that I liked the little readings.
Sara Kaye:What was my favorite thing was the Apostles' Creed, which is also probably why I love all the parts again bringing up Game of Thrones. But I like when people have like they have like an oath or a creed, they have to stand up and say where they're just like.
Joanna:I will stand by the wall. I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty Maker of heaven and earth. See, that's so badass For all that is seen and unseen. Yeah, I love it. I love it.
Sara Kaye:I love it too. I don't know if I love it in the way that I was supposed to love it, but I was just like yeah.
Joanna:I like saying it, I want like a code.
Sara Kaye:I want a creed like that Fist bump, the all that is seen and unseen. That's fresh, right, I know. I know it reminds me of the—.
Joanna:You know they changed it a little bit. They did, yeah, and it happened, you know, a long time ago. But I don't go to church regularly anymore, so when I go it just upsets me because, like my mind is wired, Is it?
Sara Kaye:softer Is it?
Joanna:like nicer. No, they just changed like a couple—I think they were trying to get people reinvigorated by changing a couple words Don't touch the creed man, why Don't touch the creed you know I had? It and now it takes away my joy and I have to read it.
Sara Kaye:Yeah, and it's not the same. I want to stand up and say it.
Joanna:It's like instead of saying one thing, you're like am I right? It's not yeah.
Sara Kaye:It's funny that child and then my favorite parts of, like game of thrones, where when the night watchman would be like, and now my watch has begun and I will stand with my soul. I mean that's not what it is, but I but it's, but I'm like I love that. Yeah it's just, it's powerful, but it also proves that people like people, want to be a part of something that is true, so like a creed or a code or oath is very attractive.
Joanna:Okay, so we just need to create this is what. Okay, so we just need to create a. This is what we need to do. We need to create a creed For host bodies.
Sara Kaye:No, okay, sorry.
Joanna:Not for host bodies For bringing back androgyny and saving the planet. I just want to save the planet. I know From rich, evil men and some women.
Sara Kaye:There's a few. I wonder who are the rich evil men and some women.
Joanna:There's a few I wonder who are the rich, evil women, I mean aside from the. Oh, who's Clarence Thomas? Oh yeah, oh, ginny Thomas, ginny Thomas, she's one.
Sara Kaye:She's A number one. We are in the land of Hillsdale College here in Michigan. Oh they have curriculum.
Joanna:you know they got some curriculum. They got some curriculum. They just want to get it out to you.
Sara Kaye:Speaking of curriculum Curricula, Is this our curricula? This is our curricula. The New Testament we're getting into it. They have a short. They, as in Elizabeth Cady Stanton and friends, but I think it's just Elizabeth that does Nope. Oh it's our first with the anonymous.
Joanna:Yeah. So we have our first anonymous contributor and I want to know who it is, because they're wonderful, they're wonderful and I'm like why would you not want to be known?
Sara Kaye:So this is pretty much so. We have an intro to the New Testament. The quote at the top says Great is truth and mighty above all things. I love that. Where is that from Esedrus?
Joanna:I read that when I started reading and I was like oh truth, truth. Do you remember truth? No, I remember truth being important.
Sara Kaye:And, just like we said in the intro, stanton poses a question. She goes does the New Testament bring promises of new dignity and larger liberties for women? And when thinking women make any criticisms on their degraded position in the Bible? Christians point to their exaltation in the New Testament as if under their religion women really does occupy a higher position than under the Jewish dispensation.
Joanna:While there are grand types of women presented under both religions, there is no difference in the general estimate of sex. In fact, her inferior position is more clearly and emphatically set forth by the apostles than by the prophets and patriarchs. There are no specific directions for women's subordination in the Pentateuch as in the epistles, which I found interesting. So I'm like ooh, she's like y'all ruined the New Testament.
Sara Kaye:Shouldn't have left this up to a bunch of dudes. Look at the dudes.
Joanna:Look at what the apostles did.
Sara Kaye:And I hear this a lot when, if anybody hears like what our podcast is about, and they're like there's lots of like strong women in the bible and what about mary? And I'm like I'm so glad you said that because that's what this is about. It's not people mistake just having like the presence of a woman, meaning that then it's cool, it's like no, you have to look at how they are portrayed yeah, that's, mary is a host m. Mary is. Mary is the host. She's the original host body.
Joanna:She's the original host body, so I'm like, no, she had no control over it. Yeah, bam, you get a baby. I know.
Sara Kaye:And you're the only one. So Elizabeth says why the founders of the Christian religion did not improvise an earthly father as well as an earthly mother doesn't clearly appear In the New Testament. An earthly father as well as an earthly mother doesn't clearly appear in the New Testament. The questionable position of Joseph is unsatisfactory. As Mary belonged to the Jewish aristocracy, she should have had a husband of the same rank. If a heavenly father was necessary, why not a heavenly mother? So this is where I want to pause, because that whole Jewish aristocracy I had not heard that. Have you heard this?
Joanna:with mary and joseph no not at all. I thought she was like a poor little shepherd's daughter in my head made up or maybe maybe wasn't made up. I believe that's kind of like catechism kind of I mean, that's how I always, you know, she was like poor and they had a donkey and yeah, I was like she was just a poor gal.
Sara Kaye:That answered the call, but apparently she was. But I believe that that is a different. So this is where some biblical scholars and different you know gone through periods of interpretation. But it does say that some people claim Mary's parents were Joachim and Anne and trace her lineage back to King David.
Joanna:Yes.
Sara Kaye:And for Christians, the connection to David is crucial because prophecies state the Messiah would be a descendant of King David. Makes sense. However, that may be like a, like I said, it might just be an interpretation.
Joanna:But here's the thing, like when you're reading through this, so we have the biblical text, but there's also historical text. That's what I found out about Josephus. He is a historian, he's not. I don't think he was a religious person, he was just a historian, like writing down history, like that's an important thing. Okay, yeah, all right.
Sara Kaye:So I don't know, I don't know. I will tell you that it did seem like there were widely varied opinions on this. I'm going to say well, because it says it in here.
Joanna:And Elizabeth is a very learned person and surrounded by learned people and historians, so she sets this up where she's like.
Sara Kaye:this isn't much better. If an earthly mother was admirable, why not an earthly father? The Jewish idea that Jesus was born according to natural law is more rational than is the Christian record of the Immaculate Conception by the Holy Christ, the third person of the Trinity. These biblical mysteries and inconsistencies are a great strain on the credulity of the ordinary mind, and I wrote am I right?
Joanna:Am I? Right Like I wrote it because I feel like I could have wrote that yeah, am I right?
Sara Kaye:to think that it's rational.
Joanna:It's more rational and this really hit me because I've told you before that my daughter had a very young age. I have this children's Bible that was my eldest sister's and she found it and she was reading it. But like months later it's like summertime and all of a sudden she's like this little peanut and she's like I don't want to get pregnant. And I'm like, okay, like okay, girl, just yeah, you know she's little. I'm like don't, don't get a boyfriend. She's like mary didn't get a boyfriend. I was like oh, oh, like it marinated, like, and she was like terrified and I was like, oh, oh, girl, that was like a once in a ever.
Sara Kaye:That was a once in a never situation.
Joanna:It was like one time only.
Sara Kaye:I forgot that it does strike that fear into like little girls who are like well, wait what? Yeah, think about that. Terrified. Think about that for a second host body I know and maybe even that idea, I know so even that idea. See, elizabeth didn't know it was in store. But the idea of immaculate conception also gives all of these creeps now grounds for being like. Well, look at this.
Joanna:Yeah, it's so creepy, it's so creepy. And that's when I really started like what am I doing? Like, oh no, what route do I go? Yeah, and now I've gone down this route. So she's been a part of this, because how can you not? You live with someone. She knows what we're doing, she's so smart. But yes, and I love that she says the ordinary mind, like everybody can see that that's a little wonky.
Sara Kaye:It's supernatural, magical, it's magical, supernatural, magical, it's magical. That's why it's not when these Victorian ladies are saying these superstitions of Christianity, when they're saying stuff like that, they're not being mean, they're just saying that's what that is. There's no. I mean Immaculate Conception. Come on, but you're going to base your whole stuff on that. You know, I mean so this next section. I know you said you had a lot underlined, so now you have the first.
Sara Kaye:Oh, I got to tell them so this is like our anonymous writer, and the whole time I'm reading it I'm like, oh yeah, you had to go anonymous.
Joanna:I know it's so good. Look at this.
Sara Kaye:Look at this. I know the very first. I'm assuming her you never know.
Joanna:Jesus was the great leading radical of his age, everything he was and said and did, alienated and angered the conservatives, those that represented and stood for the established order of what they believed to be fixed and final revelation of God. I wrote, and today conservatives get to ignore all of his teachings and just make new ones for him, Because if he was here he'd be like what are you doing?
Sara Kaye:What?
Joanna:are you doing?
Sara Kaye:Yeah, yeah.
Joanna:I love everybody.
Sara Kaye:Well, they like it because of the patriarchal order and how men are constantly forgiven and redeemed, yeah, while they're like controlling other people. So you know. Yeah, it works, it works out for them, it works for them so she's kind of ripping apart the virgin bird, I know that's so go ahead with whatever you get. Well, I'm like, what do?
Joanna:you. What do you? Got this whole thing by anonymous is like amazing. You need to read it and whoever it is literally says I think and then says they're anonymous and I just need to know who you are. I think that the doctrine of the virgin birth as something higher, sweeter, nobler than ordinary motherhood is a slew on all the natural motherhood of the world.
Joanna:I place beside the false, monkish, unnatural claim of the immaculate conception, my mother, who was as holy in her motherhood as was Mary herself. Yeah, and all women know that. Actually, all people who have a mother have an idea of what it takes to be a mother, and Mary was a mother. And to say that she was more motherly than anybody else. It's a slur. I love that.
Sara Kaye:It's a slew of slurs and because that whole noble divine motherhood is held up. You can see how that is repeated. We talked about the contradictions that are placed on women, and that's part of it. Yeah, you know, like the untouchable holiest mother, that we also don't give any rights or respect to.
Joanna:Like, since the paradox is like mind numbing.
Sara Kaye:It's crazy, it's mind numbing.
Joanna:It's crazy. I learned about a guy in this section from Anonymous because I was like, who is old, father Taylor.
Sara Kaye:So I do know. Right here it says the famous Methodist Bethel preacher in Boston Tell me, yeah.
Joanna:So he said he was famous, and when he was asked if he thought anybody had since lived who was as good as Jesus, he said yes, millions of them. I love that this is Methodist authority, Because after talking about birth, they were talking about, well, like, aren't there people? Weren't there people as good as Jesus? And so this minister was like, yeah, millions of them. What are you talking about? And I'm like, oh, that's great. Why was he so popular? So then I went down the rabbit hole and I'm like I got to know who this is.
Joanna:So he lived 1793 to 1887. So popular in Boston that Dickens even wrote about him. And this makes me love him, because these are the best priests, the best leaders, the best teachers or people who have been through a struggle. He was a foster kid, age seven. He ran away, became a sailor at age seven, shut up.
Sara Kaye:Imagine this kid Foster, kid sailor turned priest.
Joanna:How did I miss this? I know so biblical teachings with a seaman's language, so it just really brought everybody. It was like, who is this guy Now interesting? He was anti-slavery, impartial to people of color, but hated abolitionists because they attacked the church. So he's a great guy but you know, everybody has their feelings little things because he loved his church, but very dynamic teacher and had a great following and he was like, yeah, there's lots of great people.
Joanna:Yeah, you might be Jesus. You know there's a million people that you can be. You know, learn from and be inspired by my note here.
Sara Kaye:at the end of the thing was like dang. This is all about how Jesus was just a dude. Yeah, I mean she does say.
Joanna:Super great dude. Yeah Like yeah. I mean she does say Super great dude.
Sara Kaye:Yeah, like what made Jesus the power he was of his time. And she talks about his inexplicable charm he had an intellectual power of speech. Wait, this is really interesting too. So most of the sayings of Jesus are not original in the sense that nobody else ever uttered any similar truth before. Confucius, 6,000 years before Jesus, gave utterance to the golden rule. And then she said that he just had a lot of sympathy and tenderness to him. He was a great personality.
Joanna:And he was a good person, so people flapped to him because he was nice.
Sara Kaye:Yeah, the inexplicable charm about his personality which drew all the common people to him, as iron fillings are drawn to a magnet.
Joanna:Yeah, because people are. You meet people like that. I mean good people and bad people, but he yeah, he uses charisma for good.
Sara Kaye:For good, she closes with this gorgeous paragraph, can I love? This Can I read this. You can love read it Can.
Joanna:I love read it Because I was like I had to write I love this. I finished it and it was like I got mad. I was like I had to write I love this. I finished it and I was like anonymous. I got mad. I was like anonymous. Why can't I know who wrote this? I mean, she probably signed a note. Non-disclosure, okay. When it is dark in the morning and before the sun rises, there are high peaks that catch the far off rays and begin to glow while the rest of the world still lies in the shadow. So there are mountainous men, not supernatural but as natural as the mountains and the sun. Mountainous men who catch the light before our common eyes, on the plains and in the valleys can see it, who see and proclaim from their lofty heights far-off visions of truth and beauty that we as yet cannot discern.
Sara Kaye:Jesus Anonymous.
Joanna:Yeah, like ooh the metaphors, I know. Oh my gosh, it's gorgeous, the picture I see, and that's the Jesus, I know, that's the Jesus. I know that's the Jesus that Anne Rice writes about.
Sara Kaye:Is it truly? I know we brought that up last week. I'm like I need to look that up. I can't believe that book never took off.
Joanna:It's so great.
Sara Kaye:There was two.
Joanna:I think, I can? This is a touchy subject.
Sara Kaye:It is, and Anne Rice wrote about vampires and then Jesus, you're like, well, well, you know, makes sense. Eternal life, like why is that such a stretch? Right, think about it, people. So I really like that intro to the new testament, because it's not that they're like this is all bs. They're like, you know, two major points. The immaculate conception come on now. Come on now. And jesus, being like a supernatural divine, like son of God, is like, come on now.
Joanna:Yeah, these are the two things that we need to remedy. We need to bring it back, bring it back, bring it back to the man.
Sara Kaye:So we have Bring it back. Bring it back. Look at the mountains. Look at the mountains. Listen to the. Anytime you have questions, just read that great paragraph from Anonymous Right back into I shouldn't say right back into. So we're getting into the book of Matthew, which extends that idea of like Jesus was just like a gifted you know man, charismatic, caring, yeah, magnetic, I mean he could be a prophet. But just this idea, well, like I think, magnetic personalities.
Joanna:I've always thought of MLK as a prophet. Sure like yeah. I mean what is a prophet? You know?
Sara Kaye:What is a prophet?
Joanna:anyways. A prophet is someone who evokes in you a feeling that you need to be better a feeling that you need to be better, elizabeth.
Sara Kaye:In this response there's just a couple like Matthew 1, 16 and 17,.
Sara Kaye:But this is talking about the lineage of Mary and Jesus. So she says like if, as the scriptures claim, he descended from heaven, begotten by the Holy Ghost, the incarnation of God himself, then there was nothing remarkable in his career nor miraculous in the seeming wonders which he performed, being the soul and the center of all the forces of the universe, of matter and mind. Because she's like, why are they writing about him turning water into wine? Like that's like, yeah, because he's God. So she's saying that. And then she's saying like if he was an ideal character, like the gifted hero of some novel or tragedy, his great deeds and his wise sayings the result of the imagination of some skillful artist, then we may admire the sketch as a beautiful picture, worthy example for imitation. He is deserving of our love and reverence and, by showing us the possibilities of human nature, he is a constant inspiration, our hope and salvation, for the path, however rough, in which one man has walked, others may follow yeah, so why did they have to make it all wackadoodle?
Joanna:that's what I mean, like I.
Sara Kaye:Well, they have to make it super like again that supernatural thing, this unobtainable, it has to be spectacular for you to care about it.
Joanna:Not you. The sun on the mountains is not spectacular, is it not? Have you ever watched?
Sara Kaye:that. But this is the thing, all stories. It's kind of just like why we don't go to movies to see just about like a normal day in the life. Right, for a story to be interesting and grab an audience, it has to have some like razzmatazz these books did. The problem lies in people taking it literally, literally. Yeah, that's the problem, like elizabeth is trying to say. But if we look at him like he's a interesting man, you worthy example for imitation.
Joanna:Now we're talking and you should want to be like him, because he accepted everyone.
Sara Kaye:She also kind of mentions he was kind of like a stud muffin.
Joanna:I know, isn't that funny.
Sara Kaye:Yeah, she goes. It's great physical beauty, I know.
Joanna:I'm like, yeah, I've seen him. She didn't see. I thought that was funny that they put that in there too. I mean, I'm sure he was Good looking. People do draw people in, it's true.
Sara Kaye:But they said that some writers think his mother was a wise, great and beautiful Jewish maiden. His father a learned rabbi who devoted much time and thought to his son's education and, if you think about it, not a lot of people were educated traditionally about that.
Joanna:He went to the temples and sat with them as a young child, so that makes sense. But, yeah, but because he was so outspoken against all the greed and everything, it made him a marked man and people wanted him dead, which we know. So, for the reasons that we should adore him, they were the reasons he was hated, reviled, persecuted and it's sad.
Sara Kaye:It's a sad story. He commands far more love and reverence as a true man with only human possibilities than as a God superior to all human frailties and temptations. I agree.
Joanna:I agree with this writing. All human frailties and temptations, I agree. I agree with this writing.
Sara Kaye:So tell me what else you found out about or what you liked in this the comments on Matthew.
Joanna:Well, mr Matthew was basically telling the story. He's basically the, he's the guy that really gives the lineage of my man, jesus. But they talk about the birth, the story that we know. You know, they saw the star, they followed the star and they guided him to the house where this young child was. And, of course, the king at that time was like another king. I gotta kill that guy.
Sara Kaye:He's like? I don't think so. And this is where we talk about the Magi's who came from Arabia to give him. You know, three wise men. They Moravia to give him.
Joanna:You know three wise men. They saw him as a baby, they knew right away he was something special, yep, and they didn't turn him in. And this is where King Herod takes his place in the story.
Sara Kaye:I know and I had to pause because I always knew, we always heard that, like the three magi, or you know the magi, so they call them magians. Did you know what that says?
Joanna:No, well, I think I read it. I mean, we kind of get it, they're from a certain area.
Sara Kaye:Yeah, they're from. You know. They're the followers of the ancient Persian religion of Zoroastrianism Zoroastrianism or its precursor often associated with priests and religious practices involving astrology and fire worship.
Joanna:Okay. It's kind of like an ancient persian, so this makes sense. They saw a meteor. Yeah, they followed. It ended up. What if jesus is just a dude?
Sara Kaye:he's just a dude that was under a cool star. He was like hey, it was the meteor showers, we were over here just discovered something on our own I know I oh my gosh. I know they were astrologers yeah.
Joanna:I mean they were involved.
Sara Kaye:You know they involved astrology. See, this is what I'm like. Astrology is one of the oldest traditions of kind of understanding when we are Our place in space. Yeah and yeah where we are, our place in space.
Joanna:yeah, so it was the uh major religion ancient persia and it was a dualistic worldview of good and evil isn't that, which I think that is the one thing I can get behind, because that is literally what I'm watching happening.
Sara Kaye:I know well this. This is like a monotheistic, so I don't know if you really want to get into this though but they were but so they were um a priestly class associated. The Magi's were. So I just thought that was kind of neat. That is neat, but that makes sense with their star and everything.
Joanna:I love that they followed the star, found Jesus, gave him gifts Yep and pissed off the king because they were like this baby's special. So the king wants to kill the Jesus baby? Yeah, of course, little baby Jesus. And this really pissed off the king. And then, apparently, the woman that's talked about in this section with Herod is niece to both of her husbands. So, king Herod, she was married to someone else and then he went off to another country. She was married to someone else and then he went off to another country and the girl Herodesis, she had a baby with the first guy he left. There was a new guy and she was like hey also. Hey, uncle, do you want to marry me now, because you know my other uncle left and I only have this baby? No, it doesn't really say it that way, but that's exactly what happened. And John the Baptist stepped in and said hey, that's against the law and that's really wrong that you're doing that.
Sara Kaye:And that really ticked her off.
Joanna:That's right Well this is one interpretation of the story Ticked her off and she directed well, then her daughter comes in dance and harrod's like oh, I like your dancing, I'll give you whatever you want. Also very creepy, very petty, um, pedoey, um, she's like I'll give you whatever you want. And her mom is like girl, you better ask for john the baptist's head. And so she does. I mean she could ask for anything. Instead she takes she's like all right, mom, get John's head, because he said that you're a hoe bag, not I mean.
Joanna:Essentially that's what it is in today's terms. And so LCS says it must have been a great trial to the daughter, who might have asked for so many beautiful gifts and rare indulgences to yield to her wicked mother's revenge. But these deeds were speedily avenged. It is said that Salome the daughter, had her head cut off by the ice breaking as she passed over it. Herod was shortly after engaged in a disastrous war on account of the same lady and was expelled from his territories, and both died in exile, hated by everybody and hating one another. It's horrible. There you go, major karma. But that story is then refuted.
Joanna:This EBD says, which is current among the theological scandal mongers there is not a moderately intelligent jury of Christendom if composed half women, half men, which, after examining all the available evidence, would not render, and disgrace for the head of John the Baptist is an assertion born wholly of the ecclesiastical distorted imagination. Not even a hint, much less an iota, of proof to warrant such an assertion is found anywhere in history, sacred or profane.
Joanna:And then she says, christian centuries did put into circulation the charge that John the Baptist was put to death at the instigation of Herodias, the girl that had two husbands, without implicating her daughter's character, however, but but Josephus, on the other hand, contrarily, explicitly declares that his death was wholly a political matter, but I will tell you this about our awesome EBD. If you'll recall.
Sara Kaye:This is kind of who the book is dedicated to because she was a contributor that passed away, kind of who the book is dedicated to because she was a contributor that passed away. She died in Boston on November 25th 1895, at the age of 48. And so she was alive for the first part of the Women's Bible, but the second part, which there I think are five different parts where she contributes she was passed away early.
Joanna:Oh, my gosh 48. That's so young.
Sara Kaye:But she is a rad lady, another one, and so she was a suffragist and author who was active in the movements and organizations in Kentucky and Massachusetts. She married a Dietrich dude in Baltimore and they moved to Covington, kentucky. But she established organizations to aid women an educational industrial union, a day nursery, a cooperative bakery and cooking school and a home for elderly women.
Joanna:Oh, my gosh who has the time? She's younger than me. I've done nothing. I've done nothing.
Sara Kaye:We've done nothing with our lives Like you don't have. She campaigned for civic reform in areas such as jail conditions, oh, and city government, and this little bio says, like it was said of her, that she quote unquote ran the town. Isn't that awesome? Yeah, she played a large part in this woman's Bible. You know how it came to be. So it's just really. She's a really cool lady. She lectured on equal rights and wrote for various publications, including the Women's Journal. But she wrote a book in 1889, the Families of John and Jake, and it's a treatise on the relations between labor and capital following two families, one prosperous and the other poor.
Sara Kaye:I need to get my hands on that.
Joanna:Oh, you do.
Sara Kaye:Yes.
Joanna:Oh my gosh, that's so needed right now.
Sara Kaye:I know I'm like I want to read a labor and capital book by a lady writer, Right, isn't that neat. And then she wrote another book about women in the early Christian ministry, a Refutation of Christian Teachings that Relegated Women to Second Class Status in the World. So this is I think this is the third contributor that has a separate text about this very topic. So I mean, these ladies were just totally smart and awesome. And then she just wrote a couple books and set up, you know, pantries and schools and nurseries and baking and a cooperative bakery. What I've done? Nothing. I know what are we doing.
Joanna:We got to get off the social media and start planting potatoes. Yeah, exactly, I don't know.
Sara Kaye:I mean, what the heck? And she's a great writer. Now I did notice and I know we can, only we'll go through a few of these things. I was a little worried about this part in the New Testament because the second part of the Women's Bible. I was like they're a little less sassy because they do have a lot more paragraphs that are kind of historical summaries right or story summaries.
Joanna:So but this is what I want to read, what she said about josephus, because that's what made me look him up she said um well, they were trying to figure out like was the lady a really bad chick for taking john's head, and just because she couldn't have her cake and eat it too? Now the jury must remember that Josephus was born in Jerusalem about 38 AD, that he was an educated man and in a position to know the facts in this case owing both to his prominent position among the Jews and to his study of contemporaneous history, but that, on the other hand, the anonymous writers who bring Herodias' name into the transaction are not traceable further back than the 4th century of our era.
Joanna:Oh wait, that's how I have it wrong. That's 301 CE 400 CE, sorry. Josephus was 38 AD, very close to the you know common era of Jesus, just 38 years after, and that they do not, and that even they do not bring any charge against her character as a mother. They delivered the head.
Sara Kaye:That was another story. As a kid I remember the Jackson. Baptist. They left out the background of that. Now that I'm hearing Yet another Bible story where I'm like well, you didn't tell me about the creep behind all that.
Joanna:Yeah, okay, creepy, okay, I did want to say so they're talking about, you know, first of all, mary is, you know, a virgin, kind of weird Jesus, probably just a normal man, but did some great things for people. And you hear about the miracles that are, like you know, bringing people to life, and that's what he's famous for, right, that's why people went and followed him. According to the Bible that I read, the writer here says we might doubt the truth of all these miracles. Did we not see so many wonderful things in our own day which we would have pronounced impossible years ago? The fact of human power developing in so many remarkable waves proves that Jesus's gift of performing miracles is attainable by those who, like him, live pure lives and whose blood flows in the higher arcs of the brain. If one man, at any period of the world's history, performed miracles, others equally gifted may do the same.
Joanna:And I said let's do it, and that's where we save the world.
Sara Kaye:Yeah, and I wrote my little note says ooh, these Victorian ladies are really like anyone can be Jesus. That's why you listen to this podcast. For that kind of expert, that is like expert, so get on it and start miracling. They really only picked just a few passages from Matthew, and so chapter two in Matthew is this is this story, and already I was like what the? So it's about the kingdom of heaven be like in 10 virgins and it's something they're at some like wedding oh, who's ever getting married?
Joanna:this parable, is it a parable?
Sara Kaye:it's a parable about a wedding and there's 10 virgins. Again, I Again.
Joanna:I'm like one bridegroom, yeah, ten virgins, fight it out.
Sara Kaye:I mean again. And in fact the response to this I'm like how come the ladies aren't even mentioning, like why does one guy get ten women again?
Joanna:But there's a— 1895. They're like well, you know.
Sara Kaye:So, but it is a parable about the bridegroom. And so he has 10 virgins. Five of them had, like, filled their lamps with lamp oil. Five of them didn't. They weren't prepared. They weren't prepared, but apparently it's a metaphor about keeping your own light lit. Yeah, that's what the lady said I couldn't get past the 10 virgins, so you go ahead. Oh, that's what the lady said I couldn't get past the ten virgins.
Joanna:So you go ahead. Oh my god, this actually.
Sara Kaye:I was like this is great, because there's two interpretations.
Joanna:There's like the male interpretation, which is you know, well, you know those ladies, you know they didn't get the guy because they weren't prepared. These ladies are like yeah, you're missing the point, Dummy.
Joanna:Exactly, let me tell you what this parable, because this is a great parable and it means that we ladies need to stop relying on these yahoos and get our asses into the government and change the freaking laws. That's what they were saying, Unquote. That's the parable. That's exactly. That's the parable. That's the parable. That's the parable. That's the parable. We can take care of ourselves and light our own damn lamps.
Sara Kaye:I love this. I'll tell you about my host body. I know I love and I love this term, so she writes the idea of being a help me to somebody else.
Sara Kaye:I was like help me, that's like an old school meat cue, right. What is this? The idea of being a help meat to somebody else has been so sedulously drilled into most women that an individual life, aim, purpose and ambition are never taken into consideration. They oftentimes do so much in other directions that they neglect the most vital duties to themselves. Fill that lamp with oil, come on, yeah, and that's what Help meet I love that I was like that's fantastic.
Joanna:I know I'm done being your help. Meet Help meet.
Sara Kaye:So the last part, and this is ECS right.
Joanna:This I see it doesn't say there. I think so, though.
Sara Kaye:ECS. Ecs is dropping knowledge.
Joanna:Oh yeah, yeah, she does the whole end.
Sara Kaye:So that's what Elizabeth writes about her interpretation of that parable. I was like, yeah, that's much better than like if you don't do this, you won't get a boyfriend. So women's devotion to the comfort, the education, the success of men in general into their plans and projects is in great measure due to her self-abnegation and self-sacrifice, having been so long and so sweetly lauded by poets, philosophers and priests as the acme of human goodness and glory, and so is this the part.
Sara Kaye:I don't want to step on your thing, but now, to my mind, there's nothing commendable in the action of young women who go about begging funds to educate young men for the ministry, while they and the majority of their sex are too poor to educate themselves and, if able, are still denied admittance into some of the leading institutions and learning throughout our land.
Joanna:Yeah, that's why we got the women's rights.
Sara Kaye:I know it is not commendable for women to get up fairs and donation parties for churches in which the gifted of their sex may neither pray, preach, share in the offices and honors nor have a voice in the business affairs, creeds and discipline, and from whose altars come forth biblical interpretations in favor of women's subjection. Elizabeth I mean she, you know what. You think you can run out of ways to tell people to fuck off.
Joanna:But yet here's proof. Like I was like yeah, I'm going with you Again.
Sara Kaye:Actually she's not telling people to F up, she's just kind of like ladies, wake up, You're doing that much fundraising and all this stuff and you don't even get to go to the damn school, right?
Joanna:Are you kidding me, right? What are you doing? Right, light your own damn lamp, get your lamp full. So yeah, in their ignorance, women sacrifice themselves to educate the men of their households and go to make themselves ladders by which their husbands brothers, sons climb up into the kingdom of knowledge, while they themselves are shut out from all intellectual companionship, even with those they love best.
Sara Kaye:Such are indeed, like the foolish virgins, those five without oil, right, unlike the smart virgins. I know that this is what you're talking about when you're talking about virgins.
Joanna:You're like wait, why are they just like the virgins? Can we talk about the virgins, ladies?
Sara Kaye:Can we talk about why, again, we have polygamy? Can we talk about the virgins ladies? Can we talk about why, again, we have polygamy? Can we talk about that?
Joanna:It's funny because they never talk about that and I think it's hilarious. I know, I know, don't be a foolish virgin, be a smart virgin.
Sara Kaye:But I can't tell you the rest. I mean this will turn into an audio book.
Joanna:She writes I was like oh, this is her feeling.
Sara Kaye:Yep.
Joanna:The to an audio book. She writes this is I was like, oh, this is her feeling. Yep, the solitude of ignorance. Oh, who can measure its misery?
Sara Kaye:she's so I know who can measure it elizabeth katie's she is. So I mean, this is almost where I'm like you should buy the book just to read this part, just this, because there really is.
Joanna:There's even more more about, like the ignorance and degradation of the past. As in grand procession, they enter the temple of knowledge and the door is no longer shut this is when we take over. This is, this is I'm telling you 1895, by 2025, women are gonna just rule things.
Sara Kaye:I yeah, she's like the door is no longer shut.
Joanna:It's not shut. We have the oil, let's ride.
Sara Kaye:The lanterns are lit. You know what I'm saying.
Joanna:Yeah, I mean, that's the main thing. I think she's like women, take back your power. Quit being a ladder when you're getting nothing. What are you getting by building these churches? What are you getting by making all the cakes at the bake sale? What, what is that doing for you?
Sara Kaye:yeah, so it feels great. Feels great to be in the new testament. Don't you just feel like you're in a super church? I wish we had an electric guitar or something. You know what I'm saying. In our next episode we'll be discussing the Victorian feminist take on the books of Mark and Luke. Can't wait. Do you have any hot takes or insights on the books in the New Testament? Reach out. Our contact details are in the show notes. Don't?
Joanna:forget a great way to resist fascism is to support independent media. So like, comment, subscribe and share this podcast liberally, like you put on sunblock.
Sara Kaye:Thank you for listening and we hope to see you next week. You bring your ears, We'll bring the virgins and the lamp oil.
Joanna:I love it, keep it weird.
