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Biting All The Apples
Biting All The Apples is an unhinged bookclub-ish conversation that channels the sassy wisdom of long dead victorian feminists to analyze the puritanical influences still messing with our world today. We start off with the 1895 best seller "The Woman's Bible" by Elizabeth Cady Stanton. Each week we cover their 19th century feminist analysis of a book in the bible and ponder, laugh, and cry over the similarities to the issues of today.
This is a great listen for anyone interested in the patriarchal influence in religion, politics, and social order. As well as anyone that is GenX or any generation, anyone that likes comedy, books, history, and thinkin.
Biting All The Apples
Tinkling, Sackclothing, and Some Cranky Old Kings: We're Finishing Up The Old Testament
We're back after our short summer podcast pause to bring you the very last books of the Old Testament through the lens of our favorite Victorian Feminists.
They rip through the last six or so (who's counting?) books of the OT and we're covering it for you in under an hour. We start with the book of Job and that's great because we're kind of living in the book of job right now.
Then we move on to the books written by King David and King Solomon and man are they cranky and lord above they haven't learned a lick about women. Unfortunately these attitudes were put in written form so the cranky men of today can use them as how-to manuals.
We'll hip you to how Proverbs characterizes women as either virtuous, marriage-material treasures with a value "above the price of rubies" or dangerous temptresses, harlots if you will, and how that pretty much sums up the two female characters in modern fiction and film.
All of that and more in this episode!
Oh and ----
An AI told us we should use this description:
Most striking is how biblical women are used primarily as symbols rather than depicted as full individuals. In the prophetic books like Isaiah, women represent either virtue or vice, their "idiosyncrasies constantly used to point a moral or condemn a sin." The hosts draw compelling parallels to modern discourse, where women's experiences are still framed through their relationship to men rather than valued independently.
Tune in for eye-opening discussion that connects biblical representation to contemporary challenges, highlighting that when it comes to gender equality, we're still wrestling with frameworks established thousands of years ago.
Credits
Recorded at Troubadour Studios in Lansing, MI
Audio Engineer Corey DeRushia
Edited by Rie Daisies at Nighttime Girlfriend Studio
Music: ‘Shifting pt. 2 (instrumental)’ by Rie Daisies
Have some feedback? Praise? General thoughts? Know how to pronounce something? Are you a religious scholar? We'd love to hear from you. Leave a message right from your phone or computer by clicking here. Recordings may be used in future episodes.
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Am I like good distance from the mic.
Joanna:Yeah, let me know if I am too, because I talk loud, or closer I'm relaxed.
Sara Kaye:Okay.
Joanna:Should I get closer, or am I just?
Sara Kaye:loud.
Joanna:Everyone's like Joanna, no, I am loud, joanna, go over there. I'm right here, I'm using my teacher voice. I love it. I only have one voice, and it's mine, and it's loud and you gotta use it, sister.
Sara Kaye:It's the podcast that Salty Serpent warned you about.
Joanna:Welcome to Biting All the Apples, where two gals discuss one radical book.
Sara Kaye:The best-selling critical and comedic masterpiece from 1895,.
Joanna:The Women's Bible by Elizabeth Cady Stanton. I'm Sarah Kay. I'm Joanna V.
Sara Kaye:We are back after a little summer break and boy are we rested, calm, totally collected, totally in the perfect state to discuss the last books in the Old Testament. But that's mostly because the US is doing a whole Old Testament cosplay thing right now, minus the sackcloth and Old English, of course. You agree? I?
Joanna:agree, I agree, agreed, agreed, a thousand percent. I agree, I agree, agreed, agreed, a thousand percent.
Sara Kaye:So yeah, we are moving into the very last morsels of the. Old Testament with the Victorian feminists. We're going to kick it off with Job, the most famous sad sack in literary history.
Joanna:Literally. Did I say literary? Literary and literary. I know I was saying them together In book history. Whatever, he's a sad sack and he wears a sack, him together.
Sara Kaye:In book history. He's a sad sack and he wears a sack, and I don't even know if that's entirely true but I'm throwing it out there.
Joanna:I like it. I feel like it fits with what I read.
Sara Kaye:Job. You're a sorry ass.
Joanna:He's very faithful.
Sara Kaye:Then we're going to move Victorian feminist style through Psalms, proverbs, ecclesiastes, isaiah, daniel, micah and Malachi, malachi, malachi. I like him Shooey. That's a whole dinner party right there, but don't worry about time. Stanton blazes through these last books, it's true, cutting to the parts where aging kings write about foolish and contentious women. True, so cool. But before we begin, we aren't fools, so we're going to cover our buns with some disclaimers.
Joanna:Biting All the Apples covers analysis of religious texts. Some listeners that are religious out of the need for the illusion of certainty may find our content offensive. Biting All the Apples also discusses historic texts and feminist movements. We recognize that individuals, groups and alternative movements have been left out of the mainstream history. We will note that whenever possible, we are open to additional information provided to us in the spirit of expanding knowledge.
Sara Kaye:That still happens. I believe it happens it does?
Joanna:I'm actually learning stuff every day, still, still.
Sara Kaye:And.
Joanna:I'm 50. One Plus one. Plus what? 50 plus one? Yeah, still, and I'm 50. One Plus one.
Sara Kaye:Plus what? 50 plus one? Yeah, yes, so alternative movements and moments, it's true, it's true, it's true. Get to that. It's been a minute since we've been in the studio, I know.
Joanna:And talking with our ladies, but I haven't totally left the Bible behind. I've got to be honest.
Sara Kaye:Really that I haven't totally left the Bible behind.
Joanna:I've got to be honest. Really, that's what I was going to ask you. Yeah, I told you. I've been falling into these algorithms of priests talking to me, telling me about the Bible, the priest-erythms yeah, I mean the priest algorithms. I don't know, they're all Episcopal.
Sara Kaye:So I don't know if it's a sign Verified.
Joanna:Verified Verified, verified.
Sara Kaye:And some of them from like my old hometown.
Joanna:That was the first one I saw something right, yeah, and I was like El Cajon Cali, right, and I was like I'm going to listen to this guy and I liked him, you know, just talking about the Bible.
Joanna:And then all of a sudden I was getting all these priests and I'm digging it. They're talking about the things we're talking about and they're talking to their parishioners about how we should be living as Christians. And if you're going to talk about the Bible, you should be. So that's been, I've been. It's interesting, you should be. What Cooler, meaner, nicer. Thank you, you should be doing the things like taking care of immigrants. Yeah, yeah, taking care of them, of immigrants, immigrants yeah yeah, taking care of them, people different than you.
Sara Kaye:Yeah, protecting those that are less than. Are they so sure that's in the Bible? It's funny, I'm kidding. Well, but the Episcopalians I was wondering.
Joanna:I was like dang, maybe, when did Episcopalians start? Man, because it sounds like Elizabeth probably would have been one. She's a Protestant, protestant, okay, Okay, remember I did that. I can't. The whole Christian thing, the branching off thing. Did I send you that video? Yeah, it's mind boggling, just that endless sex. Do you know why?
Sara Kaye:I didn't watch that. Why? Because I was busy watching Apocalypse in the Tropics. Oh gosh, oh gosh.
Joanna:I heard that was not good, it's great.
Sara Kaye:It's a fabulous documentary. I highly recommend it and it's pertinent to this examination of the hold that patriarchal religion has over people in. I don't know entire countries like Brazil and now the United States, but follow the same pattern. So the Apocalypse in the Tropics is about the rise of evangelicalism in Brazil. And it went from like Using our same Bible.
Joanna:The same Bible.
Sara Kaye:Maybe not the exact same their own? Oh, I'm so curious.
Joanna:I wonder if it's a King James version.
Sara Kaye:In the documentary documentary they show the. Oh you know what? I should know the guy's name, but it's not bull and sorrow, but the rich like evangelical preacher, and they say the same stuff about family values have those babies, yeah, and very, you know, like gender conformity and bleaching off the system and you know All those same things, same things. And watching that, I just recommend it to everybody because it fits. It's like they're. It's the exact script that the United States is running right now. I don't know.
Joanna:So we got to change these things, we got to learn so we can change, right, sure, we learn, we change, we stop the progression of what Brazil already did.
Sara Kaye:I know, but sometimes I'm like do we have to change or are we trying to make other people change?
Joanna:Yeah, I don't think we have to change.
Sara Kaye:I mean, I think we're there.
Joanna:I think we're there. I mean, I'm not perfect, but boy.
Sara Kaye:I do think.
Joanna:Sarah Kay, we are on the right path. We are, I feel it emotionally and physically, please join our club.
Sara Kaye:It's called the Path to Perfection. The.
Joanna:Path to Perfection, we just truck on along.
Sara Kaye:You know who else is on the Path to Perfection Job.
Joanna:Job. Oh my gosh. Let me tell you about that guy. Should we just get yeah, like we can.
Sara Kaye:You know, let's talk about Job. We'll do. We can talk more about the Episcopalians and the change in politics in Brazil later. This is the Women's Bible.
Joanna:Podcast. That's right. That's right, but we will chat with you. If you message us and give us your input, I'm like we'll chat with anybody seriously Seriously. We'll even chat with the naysayers.
Sara Kaye:They're fun. They're fun, we might shut you down, but we'll listen. It is crazy that we are almost at the end of the Old Testament, but in the women's Bible, yeah, the Old Testament takes up, I'm thinking, three quarters.
Joanna:Yeah, I think so most of their rules and things were coming from that Old Testament, that they were the old testy, yeah, yeah, that they were going to Congress to try and change things. They're like hold up.
Sara Kaye:Wait a minute. They're like. Your foundational text is flawed, sirs.
Joanna:Flawed and I want my own property. So and I think it's just Elizabeth that does the responses Job- Well, yeah, actually, through the whole thing, through the rest of this, she goes real fast.
Sara Kaye:She's whipping through, let's whip through this. So the book of Job is one that I do remember from childhood, because that was another one that didn't compute. I'd hear the story. I'd be like, yeah, is this supposed to be inspiring? That sounds horrible.
Joanna:This is really depressing. Yeah, so the guy Job, just he's a great man, so, and I think even in the Bible, because she says it's an imaginary conversation, yep, between God and the devil, that's my first note up top here.
Sara Kaye:It just says Satan, yeah, satan. I was like, where's he been.
Joanna:It's our first Satan. Is that the first time Satan's? Maybe not, no, but I mean like where he's talking and he's like a form of something First time.
Sara Kaye:He's like a main character, a sentient being.
Joanna:But yeah, so God's like oh, job's the best, he's the best, he follows me, he does everything, and Satan's like okay, go ahead.
Sara Kaye:That's my favorite part about the whole thing. He was like, okay, and I'm like, oh God, you're going to let Satan.
Joanna:You're the best guy You're going to let Satan just like screw with him like a cat in a mouse. That's basically what he did, yeah.
Sara Kaye:So that does make me think that God might be a man. Actually, I'm going back on everything.
Joanna:Because I was like only it's not, Alanis.
Sara Kaye:Morissette, because like only a dude would be like, okay, we're going to challenge off, yeah, where it's like challenge, he could have just been like no Job's cool.
Joanna:Yeah, no, if you don't believe me, satan, I don't care, I'm God. Yeah, but no, he was like go ahead, test him.
Sara Kaye:Yeah him, yeah, kill his kids.
Joanna:He totally does and he had like all these farm animals, kill them all. Oh my gosh, see, if he still loves you then. And then he goes after the wife and turns the wife on him.
Sara Kaye:So that's dinah is that her name? I'm looking here, she's she.
Joanna:But you know, satan did it to her, made her, made her turn.
Sara Kaye:That's what. So I had yeah, I had some stuff to say about that. Well, Elizabeth talks a lot about that how the wife, Job's first wife, who I can't remember the name- of I think her name was Dinah. It is Dinah. Job's wife's name is Dinah, so Job is like losing the farm. Kids are getting killed.
Joanna:Bad stuff is happening. Her kids too, by the way, yeah.
Sara Kaye:So this is what I got to say about that. Two, by the way. Yeah, this is what. This is what I gotta say about that. So they and then like, and then his three friends like make fun of him and they're just like give up on this, god, dude. And so dinah's saying that too, but he doesn't, he doesn't and he doesn't.
Joanna:He wears a sackcloth and he does all things and that, and I know there's probably other biblical reasoning for the story of Job.
Sara Kaye:But you know, what I see in this is a classic role that women are still portrayed, even as plot devices. So she's like the pushback, you know?
Joanna:Yeah, like she's supposed to.
Sara Kaye:And they pick on her so that he ends up getting rid of Dinah, because she was like you've got to stop believing, you just need to, like you know, go over to Satan.
Joanna:She, basically told him to kill himself. Yeah, she's like. You've got to stop believing.
Sara Kaye:You just need to like she basically told him to kill himself. Yeah, she's like off yourself, and sure maybe that sounds bad, but think about it. She lost her kids, so you're bad. Women can't even own property. She's relying on this dude for her food, shelter and safety Good point, and he's like totally messing up. So is it unreasonable for Dinah to be like hey bud, he wasn't messing up, though. It was Satan. But was Satan ever going to stop?
Joanna:I don't know Was he, like you, have to denounce.
Sara Kaye:God or whatever, but I'm just saying they're a little harsh on Dinah so much, and so he upgrades from her.
Joanna:He loses her, he loses her and, yeah, he gets everything. Yeah, so Dinah might be the first nagging wife.
Sara Kaye:You always see this in movies where the mobster you know like Karen in Goodfellas. They always turn on the guy, but it's like you know, so Dinah's like Karen in Goodfellas. That doesn't make sense.
Joanna:Yeah, elizabeth says she bantered him for his constancy. Douse thou still maintain thy confidence in thy god, who has punished thee? Why dost thou be so obstinate in thy religion, which serves no good to thee? Why truckle, which means submit to a god who, so far from rewarding thy services with thy marks of his favor, seems seems to take pleasure in making thee miserable? She's basically like thinking what a lot of people would be thinking if life was going this shitty.
Sara Kaye:Yeah.
Joanna:Yeah, you're right. I guess I agree with you.
Sara Kaye:I mean, but I wouldn't urge him to.
Joanna:I would be like man. What's going on? Why are we being attacked?
Sara Kaye:Yeah, there you go, she's like you kill yourself.
Joanna:Get away from me. That's my problem with dying.
Sara Kaye:I just envision her as like a practical gal, because if she doesn't know how this is going to end, she's like I don't know how this is going to end, but I know how you can end, but anyway.
Joanna:Oh my gosh, Poor Job. Anyways, Job's amazing he never loses his faith.
Sara Kaye:He never loses his faith, even through all that, Deserted by wife, by friends and seemingly by God, to Job's faith wavered not.
Joanna:Not an iota, not a little smidge.
Sara Kaye:But since he proved his faith. He got everything back he is restored to health and nearly all his earthly possessions are returned fourfold. So, yeah, he gets a wife upgrade, and this is where Elizabeth's like so, but after that, nothing more aside of his first wife.
Joanna:Yeah, she just they were like oh, you observed your purpose.
Sara Kaye:Yeah, this is like a plot device. They're like we just needed you there for something the main character to bounce off of with some, you know, adversarial conditions.
Joanna:We needed you throwing some more stones in his path.
Sara Kaye:But his 10 children are restored.
Joanna:Not the same children, they're just new. I think that's funny, that they're just like and he just got 10 more children. It's not like they brought him back to life. He got new ones with this new wife.
Sara Kaye:Why did you say restored? Oh, he just gets new ones with the new wife yeah, that's how I read it. And then she, she says God adorned them with great beauty. Yeah, no woman being so fair, as they were daughters of Job.
Joanna:So he really did upgrade the kids. They must have not been good looking before.
Sara Kaye:They were just like ugh. Satan did them a favor.
Joanna:Like what Trump would have kicked them right out. Those kids got to go, man.
Sara Kaye:Edit that out no kids in Trump. I also had a note too, so it's a reward. So how can god? It's a reward to make them beautiful. But yeah, in previous stories like it was ruth.
Joanna:Yeah, it's like you need to.
Sara Kaye:You know beauty is not like don't have a beautiful wife because that's not important and stuff.
Joanna:And now this makes it where, like, hey, you can upgrade.
Sara Kaye:But beautiful daughters. They're worth a lot of money, that's true, you can probably get even more farm animals for those.
Joanna:Yeah, you know, this Bible is digging on the good-looking, fair-faced virgins. They're the best.
Sara Kaye:They're the most valuable.
Joanna:And so at the very end she's— oh, go ahead.
Sara Kaye:I was just going to wrap up this with her last sentence.
Joanna:Oh, yeah, yeah, it's a good one. I got it highlighted. Stop, it Must be the slain, oh my God, is it this one, whether Dinah lived to cheer Job's declining years or whether she was replaced, like the rest of the things in his life, and apparently that did not like he wasn't like, but I didn't miss the other things. God is still great, even though he took all that.
Sara Kaye:I don't know, I just think it's a weird parable. And if they're married like, why is it just a test on Job?
Joanna:Yeah, and why did she have to go? Is he that great of a guy if he just like got rid of her? But I mean she did ask him to kill himself.
Sara Kaye:I didn't see this, but Elizabeth wrote she's like much more sympathy has been expressed by women for the wife than for Job, so I guess we fell into it too.
Joanna:But I mean seriously though. I mean she kind of got more screwed, she didn't get any more kids.
Sara Kaye:Well, here's the thing she inadvertently was tested too.
Joanna:But she doesn't get a book named after her.
Sara Kaye:She wasn't as important, her faith wasn't as important. So, when she was like, she wasn't as important, her faith wasn't as important.
Joanna:So when she was like she's a woman, she's a woman, she's a woman, she's a background character. Yeah, crazy yeah crazy.
Sara Kaye:Let's move on.
Joanna:Yeah, well, that was Job. I mean basically it's just like it's two pages. It's in there. You have to be faithful against all odds. And um again, the woman is expendable.
Sara Kaye:You might get your fortune back fourfold yeah might maybe, if you're tested it's a good thing. So if you're ever curled up in the fetal position, just keep on trucking but I like the whole test of satan was about belief, so that is really again. We just have yeah, keep, that is the core, keep the faith.
Joanna:Don't just keep the faith. Don't question what's happening. There's always a reason. That's what Job is all about. God's plan yeah, it's God's plan. And just keep, keep, keep that faith, keep praying, keep doing what you're doing and you'll get your kids back.
Sara Kaye:And you'll get. You'll get your kids back and you'll get your kids back but a better wife and better kids.
Joanna:Better kids, you get everything. I bet the cows gave more milk. I mean, come on.
Sara Kaye:I wonder if there's a lost book of Dinah you know I was thinking.
Joanna:You know I hear about Satan here. Does Satan have a book? I want to know more I just want to know more about this guy.
Sara Kaye:I think there's a few books about him.
Joanna:I mean, like biblical books, I want the book of Satan. Oh my God, this is going to be. I mean, just like they left it out, I just it's a real question?
Sara Kaye:No, it is a real question, it's a real question.
Joanna:I know he's a fallen angel and ever since seeing Dogma I was like you're right.
Sara Kaye:Yes, we don't know, I don't know, we don't know. So we have, and it really is the. It's like two pages on Job, and then it flips right to the books of Psalms, proverbs, ecclesiastes, and then it says the Song of Solomon.
Joanna:Song of Solomon, song of Solomon Ecclesiastes, the Ecclesiastes, that's the priesties, right, ecclesiastes. This is all the. They're like lessons, right? They're lessons, proverbs basically.
Sara Kaye:And then this really is. This is only like three pages here. She only picks like six seven psalms, but remember she's selecting things that have to do with Women and rights Women and rights.
Joanna:Yeah, it starts with psalms, and psalms is like she just picks out like I'm sure psalms is. I got to be honest, I did not go flip through the Bible and see how long psalms is, but she just picked out that little short piece.
Sara Kaye:There's like a, there's a lot of them. Okay, that's my biblical scholar thing. There's like a hundred you flipped.
Joanna:Yeah, but she just focused on these supposed to be written by David, the David and Goliath that we learned great things about, like we thought he was great, but he's very flawed, Mm-hmm. But she said many of the poems are beautiful in sentiment and celebrated as specimens of literature, as are some passages in Job, but the general tone is pessimistic and that's what we see later.
Sara Kaye:All these kings. This is what I learned with these last chapters kings as they get older they're cranky.
Joanna:Well, it's funny. You know they got everything they wanted. You know all these wives, all these things. You would think that people wouldn't be so obsessed with wealth. You would think that when you're reading this, like the Bible followers Right.
Sara Kaye:And you would think that they would be more comforted by their faith. Rather than worldly things, worldly things, but the psalms that she picks are about king's daughters and beauty right.
Joanna:Yeah, yeah, she only picked a few.
Sara Kaye:Yeah, nothing really stood out to me she goes. Yet David, in the twilight of his days, seemed to dwell in the shadows of despair in sackcloth yeah, which I forgot Job was in a sackcloth for a while, when he was having trouble, yeah. Sackcloth love it.
Joanna:Am I imagining like they're like literally wearing, like they quit wearing clothes and they're just like I am just devoutly praying, yeah.
Sara Kaye:I just envision. So people know that you're Like a green sack with like a slit at the top. Well, that's what.
Joanna:I'm thinking my sorry sack that remember.
Sara Kaye:I told you when I yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joanna:But why, like is that for everybody else to know that like I'm oh, actually that's my question. I didn't look that up. You know what I did want a deep dive on sackcloth. I'm like now that I'm, now that I can see it says in sackcloth and ashes.
Sara Kaye:So actually it might've just been a type of fabric, but yeah, it's probably just like a little wrap.
Joanna:I'm just curious but it's definitely like a pashmina, but it's rough. But it's something when you're feeling bad and you wear it Like if you're feeling, I mean there must be. I don't know, I'll tell you next week because I'll look. I'll look at it.
Sara Kaye:Okay, you better look up on that sackcloth. I'm going to do my sackcloth dive.
Joanna:I'm going to deep dive in a sackcloth. Maybe I'll find a picture of me in my sackcloth.
Sara Kaye:What if we just wear sackcloth until the administration changes? Oh my gosh, I really think people Wait until I do my research, and then maybe that.
Joanna:Okay, that would cause a big it's going to cause a wave and that'll change things. We'll be change starters.
Sara Kaye:Don't worry anybody, we got it handled we're going to change the world with sackcloths. Oh, I forgot, oh, it's like. Oh, I was in the middle of a quote, so yet David, in the twilight of his days, seemed to dwell in the shadows of despair, in sackcloth and ashes, repenting for his own sins and bemoaning the evil tendency of men in general.
Joanna:Himself. He's bemoaning himself. He's like why was I?
Sara Kaye:such a whore. He's like I had a moth in my hands when I killed the giant and then I went and got greedy yeah. I'm glad he feels bad about it honestly, there is a passing mention of the existence of women as imaginary beings in the Psalms. The passing mention of the existence of women as imaginary beings in the Psalms, the Proverbs and the Song of Solomon, but not illustrated by any grand personalities or individual characters.
Joanna:Yeah, they talk about women, no names.
Sara Kaye:Right, and so he's mostly just writing about how men are lame.
Joanna:Like, women are great, men are lame.
Sara Kaye:Well, not really. That's not what he says, you know, he is talking about the evil tendencies of men. Yeah, towards women which that part is fascinating because to this day we still use the phrase boys will be boys. I hate that phrase.
Joanna:I know it's gross, it's like a universal, you know unaccountability situation. Yes, unaccountability, because I'm like what about girls?
Sara Kaye:will be girls. I mean, just imagine a world where nobody said that and everybody is just like held accountable.
Joanna:Yeah for your actions as a human. Can we just be?
Sara Kaye:human. If people have evil tendencies by nature, then they should probably not be in society. Right or getting help in a— yeah, oh, that's nice Right, that was nice of you, thank you. You know it's later at night I'm a little more.
Joanna:Or we can help them. I was going to give them an island or something. Oh, we're not going to help them get better. No, we'll help, but maybe they're the Satan. I don't know. I don't Evil tendencies, but it does go back to Bathsheba, which I think is funny, because one of the priests I follow, the Episcopal priest, was talking about David the other day and he did this cute little thing and he was like he did this, this and he raped and blah, blah, blah. And he went in and he goes yeah, did you hear me? Yeah, I said David raped her. She never gave consent. This is a priest that's like in action right now.
Sara Kaye:It has to be a West Coast. I'm like that is a West Coast, yeah, it's a Cali guy.
Joanna:Is it really? Yeah, he's from Cali, but yeah.
Sara Kaye:I'm like, oh God, but look at it.
Joanna:David's treatment troubled him for this act to the end of his days. We are not told whether Bathsheba ever dropped a tear over the sad fate of Uriah or suffered any unbraidings of conscience, so they don't talk about her being taken advantage of, which I find interesting, Because really, David sent Uriah to be killed, you know, and he just took her. So it's like, oh well, I mean he just, you know, he took care of her because he killed the husband. But no, like he basically took her and yeah, you're right, she didn't give any, say like, yeah, I'll go with you. Yeah, she had to go with him because her husband was killed by him and he was a king.
Sara Kaye:Yeah, I mean, what are you going to do? Totally nonconsensual. So what I had here as a note is how, even though we're saying that he is a dark passage and maybe he regrets it, but we're seeing these first examples of what they now call spiritual bypassing. So instead of actually taking like full responsibility and examining feelings or writing about his actual role in it. He's just handing it over to God, so he doesn't have to like examine it too much and asking for mercy.
Sara Kaye:So it's like when? So have you heard that term spiritual bypassing.
Joanna:I have not.
Sara Kaye:So say you're like talking to a friend who's very religious and you're like, oh, this is going on and trying to express like you're worried about finding a job or your home or things are going bad, and they just say, well, just trust in the Lord. Oh, so it's a way of avoiding, like, any personal examination and that is a repeat and stuff that we see throughout. You know, the internal life is handed over.
Joanna:Yeah, it's so hard. You know, I've been thinking about this a lot lately because, you know, when something bad happens to someone, you always say, well, I'll pray for you, right? Well, now that I've been doing this and really thinking about things, I'm like I pray to the universe and to all. Like it's still a prayer, yeah, yeah. So I've been reexamining my idea of what a prayer is, because how do you send good, like you're sending good vibes? It really is a prayer.
Sara Kaye:So I've been really consciously being like, okay, I'm calling on all my ancestors and I am sending If you have like little particles floating around, could you just go float over Sarah Kay for a little bit? That's right. That's when people are like I'm sending you whatever vibes I'm thinking you know, send, and we just equate prayer with Christian prayers and that's not.
Joanna:And it's not Because you can pray in a different way to the universe. That's kind of how I think We've got to pray. Pray to the universe, that's kind of how I think We've got to pray.
Sara Kaye:Pray, remember MC Hammer.
Joanna:Yes, okay thank you, I do Thank you.
Sara Kaye:So he's like he feels bad about it. But he's not like examining his bad feelings, he just wants God to take those away, yeah, when he's like. Have mercy upon me, oh God. According to thy loving kindness, according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies, Blot out my transgressions. Blot them out. Actually, I might use that. That's a good request.
Joanna:Oh my gosh.
Sara Kaye:Yes, I like it Blot out my transgressions, but I do remember from being a kid I remember kind of digging some of the psalms.
Joanna:Yeah, there were some good ones. Yeah, there's some really good ones. There's some good ones.
Sara Kaye:They're not in here, of course they're not going to be. In the women's Bible there were a song.
Joanna:There's a good song of psalms, the Song of Psalms. Love it, I don't know. I remember thinking psalms were great, these ones that she—.
Sara Kaye:Psalms they're great. I don't remember any of these. Yeah, well, you know don't want to say it, I'm like that's not.
Joanna:I feel like they were more like happy songs. They were, they're sure, that they shared in my childhood.
Sara Kaye:Actually, I think the next section, the.
Joanna:Proverbs are weird.
Sara Kaye:What the selection here listeners Was so weird.
Joanna:Yeah, and she bounces around, so she's picking some good ones. I'm not quite sure.
Sara Kaye:The numbers. That's right she picks. I'm looking at here. I'm just saying there's probably like 20 different ones.
Joanna:There's got to be 8 million problems.
Sara Kaye:They're all over the place, but they're the ones that well, for example, what is this? 913, a foolish woman is clamorous, she is simple and knoweth nothing. Okay, thanks, Bible With nothing. Okay, thanks Bible.
Joanna:Yeah, A gracious woman retaineth honor, and strong men retain riches. That's so gross, right, strong men retain riches?
Sara Kaye:Is that where the whole prosperity gospel is yeah.
Joanna:I think so, oh yeah, this whole thing is just filled with weird crap.
Sara Kaye:I'm kidding. I'm glad that Elizabeth she could have just like. This whole thing is filled with weird crap, but instead she the Proverbs do go after the sons too.
Joanna:A foolish son is a grief to his father and a bitterness to her. That bear him. That would be his mother, Hello.
Sara Kaye:I kind of I'm digging these because they remind me you know of you know, like Benjamin Franklin. Oh, like early to bed, early to rise, and this is like you know, it is better to dwell in the wilderness than with a contentious and angry woman.
Joanna:I know that one that is hilarious that's not bad that's hilarious, but it shouldn't be woman that's the thing.
Sara Kaye:I should be a human.
Joanna:Yeah, it is better to dwell in the wilderness than with a contentious and angry human.
Sara Kaye:They could not get enough human Contentious right and a continual dropping in a very rainy day and a contentious women are alike.
Joanna:Just like they just like beat down on you, Like it's fine Just a nag, just a small and then all of a sudden, you're soaking wet.
Sara Kaye:Oh my For an odious woman when she is married. A handmaid that is heir to her mistress, I mean, what was?
Joanna:that, what is an?
Sara Kaye:odious woman For a certain.
Joanna:That's why I want to know what odious is, because I go to odor and I'm like she just dangled my mouth.
Sara Kaye:You keep writing those. I'm going to look it up. Yeah, look it up.
Joanna:I'm Um Odious. Read me some more proverbs. Who can find a virtuous woman for her?
Sara Kaye:price is far above rubies, like that's in the Bible. Yeah, actually, did you know there's a movie with Renee Zellweger called A Price Above Rubies? What yeah?
Joanna:Oh my gosh, Wait, was she sold to somebody?
Sara Kaye:No, but it is about she's. I think she's like a oh my gosh, like an Orthodox Jewish woman, okay, okay, and I don't know the whole plot, but it's about her and her husband.
Joanna:I mean there's definitely some, and it is dramatic. It's very dramatic. Of course, renee Zellweger, come on.
Sara Kaye:Oh my gosh odious. How could we not know this?
Joanna:What is this?
Sara Kaye:Extremely unpleasant. Oh, repulsive.
Joanna:Oh my gosh. Well, you know stinky yeah, but yeah, yeah.
Sara Kaye:I was going with odor. You're in the realm.
Joanna:You're in the realm An odious woman when she is married and a handmaid that is heir to her mistress what the I know? And a handmaid that is heir to her mistress.
Sara Kaye:What does that mean?
Joanna:I know she has a handmaid, because I am watching Handmaid's Tale now and I'm like that stuff is weird.
Sara Kaye:I love this Wait. What she openeth her mouth with wisdom and in her tongue, is the law of kindness.
Joanna:See, those are nice.
Sara Kaye:That's sweet, that's a nice one.
Joanna:That's a nice one. There are some nice ones. She stretcheth out her hand to the poor. Yeah, cool, cool. That's a nice one.
Sara Kaye:I could go on reading these.
Joanna:Now I'm like I'm really into this. Well, they're interesting.
Sara Kaye:But Elizabeth says right here with these pen pictures of the foolish, contentious wife contrasted with the more gracious woman. Surely every reader of Common Sense will try to follow the example of the latter. It's like obvious. She's like come on, A complaining woman is worse than a leaky house.
Joanna:This is so funny. I have an experience, I know.
Sara Kaye:Because with paint and putty you can stop the dropping. But how can one find the source of constant complaints?
Joanna:All she does is complain. I know, I just wish you were a leaky house. I'd mud you up.
Sara Kaye:Shut you up. I like how she writes about the biblical writers and this it's a change in format in what she's talking about, the epigrammatic sentences. It was the most ancient way of teaching among the Greeks. This kind of short, you know sentences, like contentious women's, like you know a drop of rain on your head.
Joanna:Yeah yeah, it's quick learning, you know. Keep this with you, keep this thought with you.
Sara Kaye:So how come it switches? Why did you start talking about Solomon?
Joanna:Well, I think they all kind of Well this is what.
Sara Kaye:Oh, she said, david, he just wrote that. Solomon and stuff like that David wrote the Psalms.
Joanna:Yeah, and Solomon wrote the Proverbs I don't—Solomon wrote. I thought the rest of them, well, she's—yeah, she is it was Solomon.
Sara Kaye:Yeah, he wrote— Aren't you glad you're listening to this podcast where we're like? One of these dudes wrote this. It's right here. Solomon's idea of a wise woman, a good mother, a prudent wife, a saving housekeeper and successful merchant will be found in the foregoing text, yes, which every woman who reads should have printed, framed and hung up at her family altar.
Joanna:I think she's being cheeky. There Is she. I think she's being a lot cheeky as.
Sara Kaye:Solomon had a thousand women in his household. He had a great opportunity for the study of the characteristics of the sex, though one would naturally suppose that wise women, even in his day, preferred a larger sphere of action than within his palace walls.
Joanna:She's so sassy. Nice job, solomon, but they didn't want in there.
Sara Kaye:Yeah, trust me, he's like so Elizabeth is saying, yes, he had a thousand wives, but none of them could have been that fun, interesting or cool, Because they were like or cool, Because they were like held hostage. Yeah, she's like nobody cool would be down with that.
Joanna:I mean, I hope not. So yeah, so this turns into Solomon. So he writes the Song of Solomon when he's young. Proverbs he wrote middle of life, and then Ecclesiastes when he was old.
Sara Kaye:Okay, that's there you go. And I like this. He gave admirable rules for wisdom and virtue to all classes, to men, to women and to children, but failed to practice these lessons which he taught.
Joanna:Yeah, isn't that the problem Rules?
Sara Kaye:for thee, not for me.
Joanna:Oh, I like that. Yeah, that seems to be the problem with the world.
Sara Kaye:Very strong paragraphs there from Elizabeth, very sassy I like it. She's like oh yeah, print these out, don't be odious.
Joanna:Hang those up and live your life. Yeah, please.
Sara Kaye:Ecclesiastes. Yes See, I'm telling you, these are only like a page.
Joanna:They're a page. I I love it. This is quick. There must not have been a lot of contentiousness in there.
Sara Kaye:Yeah, the book written in Solomon's old age. So, ecclesiastes, do you have notes on?
Joanna:this. I don't have really any notes. Solomon just sounds like a crybaby.
Sara Kaye:Yes, everything in life seems to have been disappointing to him.
Joanna:Yeah, I hate to bring it back, but it seems like the leaders today that are ruining the world Very similar bring it back, but it seems like the leaders today that are ruining the world. They are like this guy because he had everything. That's kind of what I was saying about David too. These kings had everything, but it was disappointing. I'm not getting anything. I don't feel better. I keep getting more and I don't feel better, so I'm just going to keep getting more. So wealth, position, learning, all earthly possessions and acquirements he declares alike to be vanity of vanities and vexation of spirit. Yet he had them all. He's just like. It's not that great. I tried it.
Sara Kaye:So the lesson is that's not that great, so maybe you can find comfort in faith, right? Is that what they're trying to say?
Joanna:Or are they just?
Sara Kaye:like all kings, are miserable. The Ecclesiastes I like this part where it says Then I saw that wisdom excelleth folly, as far as light excelleth darkness. The wise man's eyes are in his head, but the fool walketh in darkness, and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth to them all.
Joanna:I love the words in here you get old, you get wise.
Sara Kaye:I love the words in here.
Joanna:There are some nice ones. I like when they say saith.
Sara Kaye:It just adds that TH it does it really? It hits different. It does it's more powerful, it's more.
Joanna:he said it's more powerful.
Sara Kaye:You don't walk down the hallway, you walketh.
Joanna:Walketh. I like the wise man's eyes are in his head, but the fool, I'm sorry.
Sara Kaye:I thought that was the whole thing the wise man's ears on the side of his head On the side of his face.
Joanna:But the fool walketh in darkness, and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth them all.
Sara Kaye:That's what I'm saying.
Joanna:Happeneth, yeah, happeneth. So, whether you're wise or foolish, the events still happen.
Sara Kaye:I like that. Is that what that means? I don't know. As I'm reading this, I'm like this is not good stuff to read right nowadays, because it's like—. I know she's like whole congregations of educated men and women, day after day, year after year, confessing themselves miserable sinners, with no evident improvement from generation to generation and those are the episcopals and I'm telling you nowadays they are quite lovely.
Joanna:I don't know the ones that I found on the talk um are lovely like this is the episcopalian. Actually I'm following at least three Episcopal reverends.
Sara Kaye:What if that's because TikTok wants you? I think I know who you're talking about. Some of them are awesome.
Joanna:It's on Reels and it's also. I found them in different places and then I went and looked for some too. And then I met one the other night in real life Susan the Episcopalian. She was great. Real life Susan the Episcopalian. She was great. She didn't say anything about faith we were there for John Lewis, but she seemed lovely.
Sara Kaye:Like a memory of that. These are lovely people.
Joanna:So, and then he says one they're saying Episcopalians are just, you are always sinning, so how can you, how can you, how can you?
Sara Kaye:improve. Right before that she said yeah, the Episcopalian service is demoralizing in this.
Joanna:Yeah.
Sara Kaye:So is she Elizabeth? You never know. I wish I knew a little bit more. I bet there's some scholars that could be like she was. You know this section.
Joanna:Yeah, I want to know. I thought she was Protestant. I told you there's so many branches, we're never taking a break again I'm like who's Elizabeth Cady Stanton?
Sara Kaye:Stop, stanton, stop it, I'm just kidding. So the last part. She gives another thing One wise man among a thousand have I found, but a woman among all those have I not found.
Joanna:Yeah, because you're at a thousand, maybe, maybe because you're taking them and the wise women hate your guts and they're not going to tell you how wise they are.
Sara Kaye:Solomon, hey, Solomon focus Focus on one Come on Elizabeth is like Solomon must have had a sad experience in his relations with women, such an opinion and grave reflection on his own mother who was so devoted to his success in the world.
Joanna:Yeah, she's the only reason he got the job, is it?
Sara Kaye:Yeah, but for her ambition he would never have been crowned king of Israel.
Joanna:Yeah, Because her ambition he would never have been crowned king of Israel. Yeah, because David had forgotten all about him.
Sara Kaye:Let that be a lesson to you, oh my.
Joanna:Lord, and then she doesn't?
Sara Kaye:we're almost, we're moving on to the last, but she does say to the public, the commentators, that's her.
Joanna:I would think the commentators vouchsafed the opinion that there are more good women than men. It is very kind in some of the commentators to give us a word of praise now and then, but from the general tone of the learned fabulist one would think that the Jezebels and JLs predominated. In fact, solomon says that he has not found one woman in a thousand, she's like. But the commenters are like saying there's all these good women. But he's there like eh, none that I took.
Sara Kaye:So I'm like the common denominator dude, you know what I mean. Yeah, like figure it out, buddy.
Joanna:Yeah, maybe it's you and you live so long you'd think in your old age, I know, and then I think it's funny. So they did the old age, young age. Now she ends with Song of Solomon, which he wrote when he was young, a young man.
Sara Kaye:I don't know why she did it that way and apparently they don't think it should be in the Bible at all. I didn't know that, Maybe. I wonder if that's changed.
Joanna:The Jewish doctors.
Sara Kaye:This is 130 years old, maybe I wonder if it's not in there anymore.
Joanna:I don't know, you know what Song of Solomon.
Sara Kaye:If we had a podcast to talk about this stuff, I would totally research that before we talked about it. You would like that? I would look it up. We'll check. We'll get back to you.
Joanna:But there's so many different versions of the Bible.
Sara Kaye:Yeah.
Joanna:There's a new one called the Kodachrome. I don't think it's the Kodachrome, it's something close to that, the Kodachrome.
Sara Kaye:They color-coded it.
Joanna:The Jewish advise that their young people not read the Book of Solomon until they were 30.
Sara Kaye:I was fascinated by that.
Joanna:Why 30? I'll tell you why Tell us why 30 is when they were supposed to be more susceptible to spiritual beauties and virtues than the mere attractions of face and form.
Sara Kaye:Which is a lie.
Joanna:I know plenty of 30-year-olds that are still attracted to face and form, which is a lie. I know plenty of 30-year-olds that are still attracted to face and form, but maybe you could just pair it out better. You're not so eager. You've had a little taste of the both.
Sara Kaye:It was 30 years old back in 1800s oh yeah, you're half dead, right, yeah, you're half dead. If not on your deathbed.
Joanna:Yeah, so I thought that was interesting that they were like ooh, this is sultry the.
Sara Kaye:Song of Solomon.
Joanna:Yeah, so Solomon winds up being a little bitter, but the Song of Solomon is just like a love story.
Sara Kaye:Well, that's wistful. So we have, oh my gosh, buckle up. This is like the last bits. Are you ready? I'm ready. Are you ready? The closing books of the last bits. Are you ready? I'm ready. Are you ready? The closing books of the Old Testament. Do a drum roll, thank you.
Joanna:This is it.
Sara Kaye:This is books of Isaiah and Daniel and Micah and Malachi in four pages. They're going to wrap us up quickly. They are the closing books. Make but little. And this is why there's just scant words from Stanton on this, she says because they make but little mention of women as illustrating individual characteristics. So sad. The ideal woman is used more as a standard of comparison for good and for evil they are and we usually end up being evil.
Joanna:So sad, wicked women.
Sara Kaye:Oh, don't make me.
Joanna:You know what I mean Wicked women. You know what I'm saying yeah.
Sara Kaye:The good women representing the elements of success in building up the family, the tribe, the nation as devout worshiper of the God of Israel. The wicked women. Woman the elements of destruction and the downfall of great cities and nations. Women.
Joanna:As women.
Sara Kaye:As woman, woman, I keep on. It seems like that should be women, but whatever. But no, I think. As woman is chosen, oh, she's using it, as in you can say as man yeah.
Sara Kaye:As woman, is chosen to represent the extremes of human conditions, she has no special reason to complain. Oh, snap, snap, snap. You are just here to help us Pair things out, pair things out, pair things out. How is that any different from 2025? It's not, sadly, okay. Collective. So, isaiah, yeah, I have barely anything. She doesn't write much. I was like so, Isaiah, two words. Well, no, she picks out this thing. Oh, I do love this. She doesn't write much. I was like so, isaiah, two words. Well, no, she picks out this thing where?
Joanna:he's going off on what women are wearing, which is great. Actually, it's just like why are you wearing all of this? You shouldn't be tinkling around. You should just be praying, is that?
Sara Kaye:Yeah.
Joanna:Yeah, that's exactly.
Sara Kaye:But I love the word tinkling you like tinkling I do, of course I do Tinkling around. So, moreover, the Lord saith, because the daughters of Zion are haughty and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go and making a tinkling with their feet.
Joanna:It sounds like they're feeling themselves, like they're just confident. Yeah, they're just confident. Yeah, they're wearing that tinkling and that is frowned upon.
Sara Kaye:Don't be showy, be humble, isn't that so?
Joanna:And look at how much Tinkling makes me happy.
Sara Kaye:To this day, women are policed in how they look constantly. Oh my God, Even young kids.
Joanna:The whole stupid dress code thing in schools with the dang tank tops, spaghetti straps versus a dude wearing it Right? I don't like give me a break.
Sara Kaye:I know, well, you know, those shoulders create lustful thoughts. Oh, I can't, man, when I see a shoulder, ooh, we're going to have to censor that. Be sure to beep that one out. Don't say shoulder or ankle around here. So it is, and you're talking about. They're wearing the ankle.
Joanna:I just love this they say tinkling away.
Sara Kaye:So, yeah, it's about stuff that they wear, and I'm trying to see if Elizabeth really has much to say. He does not like their style of walking which, from the description, must have been much like the mincing gait of some women today.
Joanna:Yeah, she goes in and she's like, well, if this is what we're living by, then we better have a chat with all these people wearing Easter bonnets and veils and all this crap.
Sara Kaye:They're coming to church.
Joanna:Did they not read Isaiah?
Sara Kaye:I know you think tinkling ankles is bad.
Joanna:Come take a look at these earrings and these feathers.
Sara Kaye:She says the mufflers. I love mufflers, I do too the mufflers, the bales, the glasses and girdles. Elizabeth, you got it. If the prophets, instead of the French milliners and dressmakers, could supervise the toilets of our women, they would dress in far better taste.
Joanna:Apparently, she has no use for all of those frivalties Frivolities, that's another word in there.
Sara Kaye:Do you think she's like mad that some people have French dressmakers?
Joanna:I don't know, but no, because I think she has them. She's rich, remember I know You're right, you're right, she's rich.
Sara Kaye:Right. She's rich she's got time to write books about.
Joanna:No I think she liked it. But then when she had all the kids she just became a little more dressed down yeah, you know.
Sara Kaye:I just want you to know that my notes on this next section for daniel actually says zzz. Am I missing something?
Joanna:what does that mean? Oh, because it was sleepy. Yeah, I actually only highlighted one thing.
Sara Kaye:Well, tell me so well, tell us what it's about the name of this prophet, and he was Demiel. I think it's funny.
Joanna:First of all, who changed the names? Why wouldn't they just keep it the same? His Chaldean name was Bethashazi that's cool, but now he's Daniel Weird. Betheshazi, that's cool, but now he's Daniel Weird.
Sara Kaye:Beth Shazi. That's a great name.
Joanna:I know that's way better than Daniel.
Sara Kaye:Or Shazai, Okay anyways.
Joanna:Whatever, there's so many.
Sara Kaye:So Joseph calls him one of the greatest prophets. So they talk about this king.
Joanna:There's a guy that has something he gets this writing. He can't read it, he can't figure it out. All the wise men soothsayers, they can't read it. And his queen says, hey, there's this dude named Daniel, I bet he can read it. He reads it and from what I take from this, he translated it. But from what I get from what Elizabeth says is that he did a pretty poor job. But they were like, eh, he's an old guy, he's an old guy.
Joanna:The interpretation ends up being is thou are weighted in the balance and art found in wanting. Thy kingdom is divided and given to the Maidens and Persians. And he just said that's what it said. So they clothed him in scarlet, made him like a sounds like a cardinal or something, clothed him in scarlet, put a chain of gold about his neck and he would be the third ruler because he translated it. Historians say that Cyrus was at this time besieging the city and they knew of this feast and took the opportunity to make his attack and slay the king, while Daniel was getting all of this pomp and circumstance for translating.
Sara Kaye:Okay, and the women come in this story with the queen entering to advise the king. Okay, yeah, gotcha. See, this is probably why I was like snazzy because Elizabeth had done such a great you know sassy job the last time.
Joanna:But this is, she kind of just doing a little more like summary and reporting yeah, she's like, the interpretation which Daniel gave of these mystic characters was far from easing the king from his fears and, daniel being in years and Belshazzar being still young, he took greater liberty in dealing plainly with him than he had with his father and he read the warning as written on the wall Thou hast been weighted in the balance and found waiting. And the king kept his promise and still gave, even though he didn't like it. Like it didn't, the translation didn't please the king because it wasn't good, because it sounded like the Persians were going to divide his kingdom. Right, but he still made David the dude Okay.
Joanna:But, I don't see anything related to women, so I'm not quite sure why. Yeah, or like Read a tab?
Sara Kaye:It was the queen. The only role that women had is. The queen said let prophet David come and translate. Okay, yeah, sweet, daniel, yeah Sweet, all right, and that's Daniel. I bet it's you know again, maybe the entire book of Daniel is great.
Joanna:Maybe, but that was a snoozer, that was a snoozer as far as the women's Bible goes. Yeah, there was nothing good for women.
Sara Kaye:And I don't know Like snappies, we may have to pull up a whole mattress because you know to rest for how long. This thing on, micah. Oh my gosh, micah. It's like a paragraph, it's not Two verses, yeah.
Joanna:Micah, micah, micah, micah. And this is about. This is the women Dishonoring your father and mother. Yeah, and mother-in-law.
Sara Kaye:So it's Micah 2, verse 9. The women of my people have ye cast out from their pleasant houses. From their children have ye taken away by glory forever.
Joanna:Micah. 7. The women of my people. Did I say that? I'm just saying like, just the women, come on.
Sara Kaye:Micah, yeah, and the children are taken away. There's so much family destruction in the Bible.
Joanna:There's like people destruction. They're like, oh, we want to live here, let's kill everybody Right, including the babies, right, the wives and children are completely entertained, which again still doing today.
Sara Kaye:I know Still going on.
Joanna:Right now we're doing it While we're chatting. Yeah.
Sara Kaye:So Elizabeth just says the only thing I had Well here.
Joanna:Israelites are reproved for their cruel treatment of their own people, robbing widows and selling children into slavery. Family life as well as public affairs seem to have become unsettled. So things are going wonky, but it makes sense because we're going to the end of the. If the writers of the Bible were like trying to get the book too sadded, you know, part two. Things are falling apart. The contempt and the violation of the laws of domestic duties are a sad symptom of universal corruption. I think we're in universal corruption right now, but it's for a totally different reason. It's definitely not the women being contentious and haughty Sad symptom.
Joanna:Check that out. But yeah, that's all she says about that.
Sara Kaye:but Israelites are rebuked. That's the part you miss when she just picks the verse, because I'm like, are they condoning that?
Joanna:No, no, no, they're saying, they're rebuked. Okay, they're rebuking, them Rebuked. Thank you.
Sara Kaye:They should have titled that Rebuking, rebuking the women and the last, oh my God, the last.
Joanna:Malachi.
Sara Kaye:I like his name. I do too, but it reminds me of Children of the Corn, I know.
Joanna:You can never name your kid Malachi. Okay, malachi is, it's just about marrying strange women, which really means the strange woman just means they are a different religion, right?
Sara Kaye:That's it. But it was national law that forbid them to marry strange women.
Joanna:And then so she goes on to say these Israelites were always violating the national law, which forb historians with the intermarriage of the sons of God with the daughters of men, meaning, I suppose, those of the tribes who had a different religion. So it's so funny because they kept picking those women. It's not like they stuck to the law.
Sara Kaye:Who's she quoting here where she says he that marries a heathen woman is as if he made himself son-in-law to the law? Who's she quoting here where she says he that marries a heathen woman is as if he made himself son-in-law to an idol?
Joanna:It must be quotes from the Bible, I would assume.
Sara Kaye:Or she's done this before too where she'll quote idioms or sayings of that time.
Joanna:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, it could be one of those. Or like a bird in the hand Is worth two in the bush.
Sara Kaye:Remember she's like a diamond shining, a super shiny. I don't know what she said. I don't think it was that one. But she said they put away the wives of their own nation and, as was the fashion at one time, married those of other nations. And then I should just note in case we have people super following along like Bible style, she did Malachi 2, verse 11, 14, and 15.
Sara Kaye:So, really, she's just looking at that part which is about marrying strange women, Strange gods, but it does. I like that it's ending up with this theme, which is really about the whole Old Testament, though, is about how women are used to illustrate points and they're not used as people Charming women. Thank you.
Joanna:Of the Hittites is that Hittites and the Midianites.
Sara Kaye:Sure.
Joanna:With their novel dress, manners and conversation attracted the men of Israel. I mean, how could they help themselves? They could not resist the temptation when the strongest man and the wisest one are alike led captive. There is no significance in calling women the weaker sex I love.
Sara Kaye:Elizabeth, I know she's like there's no significance in that. She's like when the strongest man and the wisest one are led astray. Yeah, how is it our fault? Exactly how is it our fault, though few women appear in the closing tragedies of the Old Testament, yet the idiosyncrasies of the sex are constantly used to point a moral or to condemn a sin.
Joanna:Yeah, point to a moral or condemn a sin, that's the only thing we're used for. And no responsibility on the man. It's the women led them astray. Nope, they were looking too good, yep, and couldn't help themselves. You know which it's really tying in today? Because, you know, obviously we have a lot going on in the news with women being not respected, even children, girls, all these girls that were in the Epstein files, right, totally not even referred to as children, but they're just called young women, even though they're 12 and 13. And I'm just like so grossed out that this shit is still going on.
Sara Kaye:This is exactly what I was going to bring up as well is that in current culture, we only hear the names, or just even you know, not names of, like the Epstein victims brought up to make a political point, just like the woman and I hate that I can't remember her name right now, but the woman- that the brutal crime happened. That was done by an illegal now, but the woman that the brutal crime happened, that was done by an illegal.
Joanna:oh, so they'll bring up these women's names, but only to illustrate.
Sara Kaye:Yeah a point, not to like look at the bigger problem, right, but rather just to progress their party for exactly but seeing that was kind of the whole playbook from 2,000 years ago and it's still working, though it's probably so hard to understand, like it, doesn't? We don't have to think like that, you know.
Joanna:No, we could be equals, we could be. I kind of like this whole idea. We could be heroes Like the whole spectrum of who we are, as you know, male, female. Spectrum of who we are, as you know, male, female. We're just humans and everyone's on a spectrum of where we are with femininity and strongness, because I know a lot of strong women oh yeah, I feel like I'm very strong.
Sara Kaye:Listen my nieces wrestle. They can like. Yeah right, I'm like they could kill anybody. I'm just kidding. You don't kill people in wrestling anyways, because but you could.
Joanna:You could take them down.
Sara Kaye:You could protect yourself.
Joanna:You know what I mean.
Sara Kaye:Well, I'm glad that you brought up the spectrum thing, because that is a good stopping point, because next week we're going to have kind of a special discussion of the Kabbalah Kabbalah.
Joanna:I'm so excited. Which does?
Sara Kaye:talk about that. It does talk about the difference between the binaries of genders, yeah, which is considered kind of. They write it in this, don't kill us viewers, listeners.
Joanna:Listeners, we will know a little more.
Sara Kaye:But Elizabeth, I peeked ahead and she does say it's kind of the occult book of the Bible.
Joanna:Of the Old Testament, of the Old Testament, of the Old Testament, old Testament yeah, so that's what we're going to be talking about next week.
Sara Kaye:I can't believe whoa. It only took us like.
Joanna:What episode are we on?
Sara Kaye:I think we're on 16 or 17, but we had a couple bonus episodes.
Joanna:Oh yeah, I like the bonuses. Oh, we're 16.
Sara Kaye:It's so awesome, so let us know what's on your mind. Yeah, what do you want us to?
Joanna:delve into. You know the things that maybe we spaced out on we never space. It's always on purpose. We are just like machines. I mean we have no strain, we don't strain.
Sara Kaye:So you check our show notes in the episode description for how to reach out through text or voicemail. We've got infotainment and more up on TikTok and YouTube. Join us there if you like awesome stuff.
Joanna:Chat with us, get to know us, like, comment, subscribe, share this podcast with everyone you see this week. And if you don't see anyone, go to the grocery store Right, you'll see people there. Right, talk to them at the checkout. We will write your name in the sky with invisible but potent gratitude dust. What a deal, oh my gosh. So when you look up and you see it, you're like oh, that's from Sarah.
Sara Kaye:Kay and Joanna V.
Joanna:Exactly.
Sara Kaye:So, yes, have a super week and we'll meet you for some old school occult talk.
Joanna:next episode Love you, see you later. Bye.
Sara Kaye:Bye, thank you.
